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jaggedrobotpubes ,

“Sui” means self, and “cide” means kill, and the man who died was he, himself.

I don’t get what you’re not understanding.

SoJB ,

“There is no such thing as a ‘lesser evil’ when the result is genocide”

“Yes there is”

  • a completely unironic liberal take I saw highly upvoted just today that this reminded me of.

Eventually you are the evil, and that moment passed a long time ago.

fossilesque OP ,
@fossilesque@mander.xyz avatar

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Martin Luther King Jr., Letter from the Birmingham Jail

www.africa.upenn.edu/…/Letter_Birmingham.html

PugJesus ,

“There is no such thing as a ‘lesser evil’ when the result is genocide”

“Yes there is”

a completely unironic liberal take I saw highly upvoted just today that this reminded me of.

Eventually you are the evil, and that moment passed a long time ago.

Do you regard the Soviets and the Nazis as equally evil?

solo ,

Do you regard the Soviets and the Nazis as equally evil?

I’m not too sure how constructive this question is. They have different characteristics for sure and this is enough for me, in terms of analysis.

PugJesus ,

It’s very constructive. Soviets and Nazis both committed genocide. But anyone with a shred of morality should have no hesitation, if it’s down to the wire and only the two of them to choose from, which one should side with. The Soviets, if that wasn’t clear. The Soviets, awful as they were, and even though they were quite literally genocidal - on multiple occasions, on a massive scale - are very much the lesser evil compared to the Nazis. The idea that there is no ‘lesser evil’ when genocide is involved on both sides as a matter of general principle would necessarily imply that the Soviets and the Nazis are equally evil, which is fundamentally absurd on its face.

It’s a hollow argument trotted out to make “LIBERALS BAD FOR FOREIGN POLICY” sound more profound; it’s not a sincerely held principle, and the inability to answer that challenge displays that.

deadbeef79000 ,

Soviets and Nazis both committed genocide.

Wait untill you hear about what happened to the indigenous Americans.

Or, indigenous Australians.

Or, pretty much everywhere the British “discovered”.

PugJesus ,

Wait untill you hear about what happened to the indigenous Americans.

Or, indigenous Australians.

Or, pretty much everywhere the British “discovered”.

What does that have to do with my point?

deadbeef79000 ,

I entirely misread your argument the first time.

I actually agree with you.

I was initially dismissive because of the old “are X as evil as Nazi’s?” As that’s usually a disingenuous argument. Selecting the Soviet Union as another “evil” is almost always American anti-communist nonsense too.

I shall go and correct my other comment.

PugJesus ,

No worries, it happens. I went to Nazis because no one worth taking seriously disputes that Nazis are both genocidal and some of the worst scum of the earth to ever disgrace this planet, so it avoids an argument over whether Side A is REALLY that bad. The number of cretins as vile as the Nazis is very small - and so frees Side B to be a legitimately evil, yet indisputably less evil, contrast.

solo ,

It looks like we see things quite differently. For me all Genocides are evil. I believe it is important to study their differences so they do not reoccur in any way, shape or form. Obviously as humans we haven’t worked on this properly (for many of reasons) and one more is currently happening to Palestinians. In that sense comparing randomly any two of them as to see which one is worst, it honestly doesn’t make sense to me.

PugJesus ,

It’s not about whether a genocide is right or wrong. All genocides are wrong, and should be prevented when possible. The point is that if there are two sides to choose from, realistically speaking, the fact that both engage in genocide does not make them equal. There is generally still a lesser evil, and oftentimes by a large degree.

Again - if it comes down to the wire, between the Nazis and Soviets, is there a lesser evil there?

solo ,

As I briefly explained above, I don’t see a point to this hypothetical question and I was not convinced by your arguments, so I will not engage to answering it.

PugJesus ,

I very clearly explained the point, and you’ve very clearly demonstrated an inability to answer the question.

barsoap ,

would necessarily imply that the Soviets and the Nazis are equally evil, which is fundamentally absurd on its face.

Depends on your lens. Both were violent authoritarians really into hierarchical power. The Nazis stood by that, owned it (Führerprinzip and everything), while the Soviets coated the whole thing with “worker’s rights” paint, keeping the soviets around as mouthpieces of the Nomenklatura. Arguably, owning your shit is better than being shifty about it, so the Nazis were better.

…not to say that Nazis can’t be shifty they constantly are now that you get punched in the face for calling yourself one but the 3rd Reich didn’t hide its ambitions.

Then you can use even more different lens. Number of victims. How they went about it. Whether you were required to send birthday greetings to the leader when you’re in a KZ/Gulag. The list goes on and on and on, if you want to be partisan you could portray things selectively either way, and that’s where you throw up your hands and say “They’re comparable only in so far as they are both incomparably evil”. The Red Khmer killed way fewer people than Nazis or Soviets, yet they’re very much in that “comparable because incomparable” category due to the sheer insanity and ultimately randomness of the policy.

PugJesus ,

Depends on your lens. Both were violent authoritarians really into hierarchical power. The Nazis stood by that, owned it (Führerprinzip and everything), while the Soviets coated the whole thing with “worker’s rights” paint, keeping the soviets around as mouthpieces of the Nomenklatura. Arguably, owning your shit is better than being shifty about it, so the Nazis were better.

…not to say that Nazis can’t be shifty they constantly are now that you get punched in the face for calling yourself one but the 3rd Reich didn’t hide its ambitions.

…

what

Then you can use even more different lens. Number of victims. How they went about it. Whether you were required to send birthday greetings to the leader when you’re in a KZ/Gulag. The list goes on and on and on, if you want to be partisan you could portray things selectively either way, and that’s where you throw up your hands and say “They’re comparable only in so far as they are both incomparably evil”. The Red Khmer killed way fewer people than Nazis or Soviets, yet they’re very much in that “comparable because incomparable” category due to the sheer insanity and ultimately randomness of the policy.

If you’re sitting between the Soviets and the Nazis and saying “Well, I can’t say which is the lesser evil”, you’re no one I would sit at a table with.

barsoap ,

If you’re sitting between the Soviets and the Nazis and saying “Well, I can’t say which is the lesser evil”, you’re no one I would sit at a table with.

If you’re sitting at a table with the Soviets saying “Well, I can say they’re better than the Nazis”, you’re no one I would sit at a table with.

At some point the evil is so bad that lesser evilism doesn’t work, you have to fight on both fronts, sooner or later, anyway. Ask Makhno. Best you can do is play them against each other.

Not to mention that the Soviets and Nazis were fucking allies.

PugJesus ,

If you’re sitting at a table with the Soviets saying “Well, I can say they’re better than the Nazis”, you’re no one I would sit at a table with.

So you wouldn’t sit at the table with the Western Allies in WW2?

barsoap ,

The right outcome of that war would have been both Germany and the Soviets getting rolled by everyone else for invading Poland. But authoritarians were appeased, and thus we got the Soviet-Western alliance.

So, no, I wouldn’t have because the need would never have arisen.

PugJesus ,

If I were the US I would’ve entered the war early, and rolled all the way to Moscow.

I suppose the lives of the entire Polish nation are a small price to pay for moral purity?

How many more years do you think WW2 would have went on had the Soviet Union collapsed in the absence of American lend-lease, and the UK and US been left to fight the Axis on their own? How many more years of the Holocaust burning ‘undesirables’ in the furnaces are acceptable to not have to sully your hands by joining with the Reds?

I have no doubt that the US and UK retained the material capacity to win (the will? That’s a different question). But there’s a multi-front, multi-million soldier deficit to be made up there, and the Nazis aren’t going to be idle in their new lebensraum. How many lives are worth playing “Both Sides” games with two legitimately gruesome but-in-no-way-reasonably-comparable authoritarian states?

barsoap ,

I suppose the lives of the entire Polish nation are a small price to pay for moral purity?

The Soviets invaded Poland, remember. Maybe you’re blanking out on that one, somehow under the impression that the Soviets “freed” Poland from the Nazis or something.

At that point in the war there were no multiple fronts, there was no lend-lease, there were the Nazis and the Soviets getting away with carving up a sovereign country.

So don’t fucking “Polish lives” me here. If you care about Polish lives you hate both Nazis and Soviets.

PugJesus ,

The Soviets invaded Poland, remember. Maybe you’re blanking out on that one, somehow under the impression that the Soviets “freed” Poland from the Nazis or something.

No, I’m under the impression that the Polish nation survived under Soviet oppression; something which would not have happened under Nazi oppression. Do you not know what Generalplan Ost entailed?

If you care about Polish lives you hate both Nazis and Soviets.

I do hate them both. Just not equally. The Nazis are worse, without ambiguity.

barsoap ,

I’m under the impression that the Polish nation survived under Soviet oppression

With time, they would’ve killed it, with deportations, settlements, language policy, etc. Poles are more numerous than e.g. Lithuanians but Russia has wanted to Russify the whole area for centuries now. And the Soviets were nothing but the continuation of the genocidal, colonial, Russian empire with a different coat of paint.

They probably would’ve treated Poland like Ukraine and worse right from the start if the Nazis hadn’t tried a very similar thing directly beforehand: Poland had a very active and well-organised resistance, had the Soviets started out with their usual genocidal programme the Polish resistance would’ve fought right back. So they bid their time, first carefully cultivating an image as liberators.

PugJesus ,

With time, they would’ve killed it, with deportations, settlements, language policy, etc.

The Soviets had 50 years, and didn’t manage it. The Nazis had five years and managed a fifth of the fucking population.

Pretty sure the Nazis put a higher priority on genocide than the Soviets did. Guess what? That makes them worse. And looking at those numbers, considerably worse.

They probably would’ve treated Poland like Ukraine and worse right from the start

They did treat Poland like Ukraine.

if the Nazis hadn’t tried a very similar thing directly beforehand: Poland had a very active and well-organised resistance, had the Soviets started out with their usual genocidal programme the Polish resistance would’ve fought right back. So they bid their time, first carefully cultivating an image as liberators.

The Polish Home Army was a nonentity by the end of the war due to the Sovs stabbing them in the back, and the Cursed Soldiers of the next decade achieved little. It wasn’t that the Polish people just suddenly ‘forgot’ about what the Soviets had done to them - it was that the Nazis were unamfuckingbiguously worse.

barsoap , (edited )

They did treat Poland like Ukraine.

Did you blank out on the Holodomor or are you denying it?

We’re talking about Soviets vs. Nazis here, not “Who did worse, specifically, in Poland”.

PugJesus ,

Neither. The looting of Poland by the Soviets post-WW2, the export of foodstuffs under famine conditions, and the repression of Polish political organs is well-recorded. The death toll just wasn’t as high.

barsoap ,

Famine in Poland? You’re referring to the Warsaw Ghetto famine (that was the Nazis) or the shortages in the early 1980s? The GDR sent a lot of stuff over back then.

…frankly speaking looking through lists famines in Poland are historically about as astonishingly rare as plague outbreaks.

My point still stands, though: The Soviets were absolutely willing to do worse, it just wasn’t opportune at the moment. And this isn’t about “What either side did in Poland, specifically”, but whether there’s a point at which evil is so bad that it’s pointless to make distinctions. And the Soviets crossed that line.

You can also find people the Nazis treated way better than Poles, Slavic people: The Sorbs (mostly innocently). Or Croats (because Ustaše). That doesn’t suddenly make the Nazis less evil.

deadbeef79000 , (edited )

It’s not constructive, it’s what-about-ism and disengenious rhetoric.

I entirely misunderstood the parent comment.

PugJesus ,

“There is no such thing as a lesser evil in a conflict where both sides are genocidal.”

“[pretty indisputable example of both sides being genocidal but there very clearly being a lesser evil between the two]”

“Whataboutism!”

???

acosmichippo ,
@acosmichippo@lemmy.world avatar

do you want more genocide, or less genocide?

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Someone tried to argue with me that Kamala will genuinely try to make a ceasefire happen, right after she banned Palestinians from talking at the DNC rally.

His evidence that the “uncommitted voters” supported Kamala was that they backed her campaign in their speech… which was the one banned from being presented because it was pro Palestinian…

I still haven’t replied to that thread because I genuinely don’t know how to explain to this person that their candidate lied to them, and clearly has no interest in ending the genocide.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Who should Americans vote for president in November?

Annoyed_Crabby ,

Ahh yes, suicide by bondage.

faizalr ,
@faizalr@fedia.io avatar

But it doesn't make sense.

PugJesus ,

Like the British spy who was found dead, locked inside a gym bag, with a padlock on the outside. It was ruled a suicide.

Cops don’t even try to make up plausible explanations when they don’t want to address an issue.

Grass ,

that’s one houdini ass suicide…

deadbeef79000 ,

Ass-suicide? Reasonably sure suicide applies to the whole body!

reinei ,

No no! They were talking about the police chili last night! That was some serious ass-suicide this morning …

deadbeef79000 ,

That sounds more like a targeted ass-ass-ination.

idiomaddict ,

Though to be fair, if I had the skills and inclination to do that, there’s not a chance I’d do it normally

Maeve ,

It seems police could come up with a better lie.

lugal ,

Like clan criminality or something. If a foreigner dies it has to have been another foreigner

Maeve ,

Right?

PhlubbaDubba ,

Not actually sure if Palestinians still do clan structure.

Palestine has historically been an incredibly urban region and Palestinian dialect is significantly different from dialects spoken by arabs in regions where clan structure is more entrenched.

SpaceNoodle ,

Why? What are we gonna do, arrest them?

Maeve ,

I read it as sarcasm, since that's also a popular police scapegoat, but who knows with Poe's law?

NoIWontPickAName ,

I prefer Cole’s law

deadbeef79000 ,

Thinly sliced cabbage?

NoIWontPickAName ,

With carrots

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