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TIL that his museum says that "Roald Dahl’s racism is undeniable and indelible"

This is the first I’ve heard of it, but here’s one of his infamous quotes:

"There is a trait in the Jewish character that does provoke animosity, maybe it’s a kind of lack of generosity towards non-Jews.

I mean, there’s always a reason why anti-anything crops up anywhere; even a stinker like Hitler didn’t just pick on them for no reason.”

His other quotes tend to be condemnation about specifically Israeli zionism and barbaric murder, buy i don’t have context as to whether he’s referring to palestine or not. Some people might have more sympathy for these statements these days, but a lot of his other quotes have to do with Jews controlling money and media, less defensible prejudice.

Nuke_the_whales ,

Funny hearing a Brit complain about another race’s lack of generosity towards others. Especially since he helped the colonialist Empire to win a war

Varyk OP ,

Ha, “these buggered imperialists, old boy!” exclaimed Nigel, pulling taut his waistcoat.

FlyingSquid , (edited )
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I was called into this thread to give my opinion as a bona fide and official Jew. I will say this about Roald Dahl- yes, he was an antisemite. But I still grew up with his books. Even my dad, who was incredibly sensitive to antisemitism and definitely knew about Dahl could not deny that he was an amazing writer both of children’s books and macabre adult fiction. I remember specifically that he gave me The Twits when I was a kid, while at my also very sensitive to antisemitism grandparents’ house. I don’t remember others he gave me, but I really enjoyed that one, so I remember it.

I don’t know, I guess we all have the occasional intentional blind spot for these things. Sometimes people are just so talented that you have to overlook their flaws. Of course, some flaws can’t be overlooked. I won’t watch a Woody Allen film anymore. I won’t watch the work of a pedophile.

But Roald Dahl’s racism was one where didn’t actually do anything to hurt Jews. As the quote says, he wasn’t even pro-Hitler. So I can get past it due to his talent. He was not the real danger to my ancestors in his lifetime and he was not responsible for a genocide. On top of that, he didn’t extend his bigotry to any of his novels that I ever read.

You can’t say as much for H. G. Wells, who had a virulently antisemitic moment in War of the Worlds. It’s considered a classic these days. And what about beloved Charles Dickens’ novel Oliver Twist? I would bet that the character of Fagin caused a lot more issues with British Jews than anything Roald Dahl said or did considering that novel was and is so popular that 19 films based on it have been made, including one based on a hit Broadway musical.

Piece of shit rapist Roman Polanski made a straight remake as recently as 2005 (and that’s just weird because he’s Jewish). It did really well at the box office and got a lot of positive reviews.

Imagine if a book with a character that was a disgusting caricature of a black person in it who is also one of the villains of the book and they were still making movies about it within our lifetime.

Edit: Also re Oliver Twist, I hear that in the version Alec Guinness is in, he’s an especially antisemitic Fagin, but I’m going to choose to never watch it and pretend that isn’t true because that man was amazing. Never mind Star Wars, ever see Kind Hearts and Coronets? He plays 8 members of the same family- believably- including a woman.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I won’t watch a Woody Allen film anymore. I won’t watch the work of a pedophile.

I already had one Lemming absolutely lose their shit when I challenged them on this assumption, I hope you won’t be another one. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You mean apart from the word of the person he molested, right?

cbsnews.com/…/dylan-farrow-interview-today-gayle-…

Yes, I know, “she was coached.”

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

She was 7. I know I don’t have many memories from that age I can be 100% confident about.

The simple fact is that neither of us know for sure what, if anything, happened. That’s why I find it curious when people jump to the “he’s 100% guilty” point of view.

“During the investigation the Connecticut State Police referred Dylan to the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic of Yale–New Haven Hospital, which concluded that Allen had not sexually abused Dylan and the allegation was probably coached or influenced by Mia Farrow. The New York Department of Social Services found “no credible evidence” to support the allegation.”

en.wikipedia.org/…/Woody_Allen_sexual_abuse_alleg…

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

She was 7. I know I don’t have many memories from that age I can be 100% confident about.

What sort of thing on that level of trauma happened to you when you were 7?

Maybe believe victims.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

What sort of thing on that level of trauma happened to you when you were 7?

Like I said, I don’t have many memories from that age and none I would be 100% confident about in their accuracy.

Maybe believe victims.

Good grief, no. Take victims seriously, give them support, get their story, investigate, absolutely. Believe everything everybody says who identifies as a victim? That’s asinine.

Scroll up, you didn’t answer my question. You’re choosing to believe something based on what evidence? Please explain why you’re certain when the people who actually investigated these allegations are not.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Like I said, I don’t have many memories from that age and none I would be 100% confident about in their accuracy.

That is not an answer. What sort of thing on that level of trauma happened to you when you were 7? Because, believe it or not, people remember traumatic things that happen to them at that age quite well. They spend years in therapy because of it.

There’s a difference between remembering something traumatic and remembering what happened at your birthday party.

Also, let’s say she isn’t “100% confident.” Let’s say she’s “70% confident.” Maybe still believe her.

The man literally made a movie, at age 44, where he’s fucking a high schooler.

Again, maybe believe her.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

“On August 17, 1992, the Connecticut State Police announced that they were investigating the molestation allegation. In September the police referred Dylan to the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic of Yale New Haven Hospital. The main questions were whether Dylan was telling the truth and whether she was sexually abused. Frank Maco, State’s Attorney for the Litchfield district, declared in 1997 that he asked the Child Sexual Abuse Clinic to evaluate whether Dylan would make a viable witness. The clinic’s professionals met with the police and Maco for preliminary information. Between September 18 and November 13 they conducted nine separate interviews with Dylan and her mother. On October 14 they interviewed Groteke, and between November 17 and January 7 they had three interviews with Allen. Finally, they met with Farrow to review the recording she had made of Dylan between August 5 and 6. Berge, the other nanny present on August 4, was also interviewed, as were the two psychotherapists treating the children, Coates and Nancy Schultz. The Child Sexual Abuse Clinic medical director, Dr. John M. Leventhal, signed the team’s report while Dylan was interviewed by the social workers. Completed in March 1993, the report concluded: “It is our expert opinion that Dylan was not sexually abused by Mr. Allen.””

en.wikipedia.org/…/Woody_Allen_sexual_abuse_alleg…

You’re still refusing to answer a simple question. More to the point, what on earth gives you the confidence to pass judgement from a distance when your judgement is 100% at odds with experts who were directly involved in the case?

Again, maybe believe her.

You piss off the wrong person, they go to the police with a story that you committed a violent sexual assault against them. You didn’t.

By your logic, you’re a rapist.

See how stupid that is?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The only question I can see that I haven’t answered is the one you asked after I asked you what sort of thing on that level of trauma happened when you were seven.

I’m not sure why you expect me to answer any of your questions when you have refused to answer the one I asked you twice.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I answered as best as I could. What do you want me to say?

Notice I’ve supplied you with plenty of information from people who are far, far more familiar with this matter than you or I.

It speaks volumes that you’re completely unwilling to engage with it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You could have given three possible answers:

  1. Named the sort of trauma you went through.
  2. Said you never went through anything that traumatic at her age.
  3. Said you have no idea if you went through anything that traumatic.

And if it was 2 or 3, good for you. Plenty of people who suffered sexual abuse at that age remember it very, very well. I know more than one of them.

But you haven’t answered with any of those. All you said was, “like I said, I don’t have many memories from that age and none I would be 100% confident about in their accuracy.” That is not an answer. Because that could mean anything.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

No, it’s an honest answer, you just don’t like it.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

It isn’t an honest answer. It could mean “I have 99% confidence something traumatic did happen to me.” It also could mean “I have 1% confidence something traumatic did happen to me.”

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

It isn’t an honest answer.

This is the level you’re stooping to? I think you need to reevaluate your approach to this.

It could mean “I have 99% confidence something traumatic did happen to me.” It also could mean “I have 1% confidence something traumatic did happen to me.”

It could mean that, as I originally said, “I don’t have many memories from that age and none I would be 100% confident about in their accuracy.”

That’s the truth. You may not like it but that’s not my problem.

Anyway, I sense you’re pulling on this thread for all it’s worth to avoid discussing literally everything else I’ve brought up. Let’s leave it there. It’s like talking to a brick wall.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You’re just avoiding telling me whether or not you remember going through anything traumatic. Either you remember something or you don’t. If you don’t remember going through anything traumatic and no one told you you went through anything traumatic, then you can say you probably didn’t. If you remember something or someone told you that it happened, maybe you did.

You won’t tell me either way. You seem to think that there is some ‘trauma happened/didn’t happen’ superposition where you can just say ‘I’m not sure if my memories of childhood are true’ and get out of that.

Would you say that if I asked you if you broke any bones as a child? How about if I asked you if you ever got hit by a car as a child? Would you say, “I can’t say with confidence what happened to me as a child” as an answer to that question? Because, again, that’s not an actual answer to the question.

Don_Dickle ,

You would make a great witness to the a crime…I would love you if I was defending.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t follow?

Don_Dickle ,

Because you testifying would be great for the defense.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

How so? If you have a point to make here, please go right ahead.

Don_Dickle ,

Because a good defense attorney could take you right out. Do I need to ELI5 for you?

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

Do I need to ELI5 for you?

Yes please. Spell it out, why would I be a witness and why would an incomplete recollection of me being seven years old, several decades ago result in me being called to testify?

You aren’t making sense.

ChaosCoati ,
@ChaosCoati@midwest.social avatar

It happened to me when I was 8 (not by Woody Allen). I can still remember every detail. It sticks with you

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

I’m sorry to hear that. Surely you can accept that everybody is different and that may not be the case for someone else?

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Why are you willing to believe this person’s claims? No experts have weighed in at all.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

Blocking you now. Your approach to this discussion has been embarrassing.

ChaosCoati ,
@ChaosCoati@midwest.social avatar

I can. I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to assume I know what everyone’s experience is, or to claim my experience is the single universal experience.

Surely you can accept that it is the case for some

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

Of course. I hope you’re in a good place now.

Andrzej ,

Jonathan Pryce received a fair bit of criticism in the nineties for his “politically correct” (read, not explicitly antisemitic) portrayal of Fagin in the musical Oliver!. Listening back to the cast recording, it’s actually a revelation — Reviewing the Situation, which had always been played for antisemitic laughs, is suddenly revealed as an incredibly powerful song, brimming with pathos.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Yep, he was a piece of shit in many ways.

The stories are still pretty great, though.

Varyk OP ,

The stories are undeniably fantastic, how else was he a piece of shit?

Let me TIL something else about the guy.

apfelwoiSchoppen , (edited )
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

He doesn’t need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel. The region of Palestine was stolen, not just area that is Gaza.

Israel was created largely because powerful people in Europe wanted the Jewish people out of Europe. Its very foundations are antisemitic. These notions of a Jewish state in Palestine started to have widespread antisemitic support before WWII and immediately after WWI.

Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren’t directly linked hand in hand.

downpunxx ,

You mean the land of Judea, where Jews originated from, and being such a targeted and closed society for the last 2000 years since Roman expulsion, have wished to return, l'shana habah byirushalaim is what we say every year on passover, it's always been the desire of the Jewish people to return to Judea, you know, before it was Roman "Palestine. We've got the worlds oldest land deed, our impramatur in the genes we carry in our blood, our DNA says we are from the Levant, that Arabs are from Arabia, that Arabs are the usurping colonists

Doesn't matter to the Jew haters, they won't hear of it, but we are home now, and are gonna fight with every ounce of strength we have to keep OUR homeland

apfelwoiSchoppen , (edited )
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

All for Jewish folks living with the folks that live there. Indeed the Jewish people never left. A state is not required for this. Genociding a people and stealing their homes, starving them, is not peaceful coexistence. The eugenics aspect of your argument is totally gross and hard to gloss over. DNA purity is a buck wild bigoted argument.

Tagger ,

How do you square that up with the horrific persecution of the peoples who have lived in that land for the intermediary 2000 years?

Letstakealook ,

A little blood and land…where have we heard that before? You’re just a plain old fascist.

Jiggle_Physics ,

So all the Jews in the US are gonna give their land back to the natives, right?

GTFO here with this dumb shit

Varyk OP , (edited )

“He doesn’t need to be specifically referring Gaza when speaking about the large scale land theft and genocide of the Palestinian people perpetrated by the state of Israel.”

I doubt he was.

“Dahl may have been the type of bigot to be antisemitic and against Zionism. They aren’t directly linked hand in hand.”

Yes, those views are precisely his stated prejudices in the above quotes.

He doesn’t seem to have linked those two instances directly or causally, each is a skewed reasoming for why he doesn’t like jews in general, within or without Israel.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah I wrote that before you edited your post, you mentioned Gaza. All good in the hood my dude!

Varyk OP , (edited )

Gooot it, no sweat.

Didn’t want anyone else getting confused over gaza/Palestine, or me and Roald Dahl, haha.

downpunxx ,
SteveFromMySpace ,

“A stinker like Hitler” lmfao I mean yes Dahl is clearly prejudiced and that’s the understatement of the century re: Hitler but that was hysterical to read.

That ol’ rascal Hitler!

Varyk OP ,

I completely agree, I did chuckle out loud in bewilderment when I read that wholly incommensurate epithet.

“A stinker like Hitler”.

Absurd.

SteveFromMySpace ,

Watch out for that rapscallion Mussolini! He’ll give you a real walloping!

Varyk OP ,

“You be careful or you might run into that upstart Zodiac Killer!”

radicalautonomy ,
@radicalautonomy@lemmy.world avatar

“Pol Pot, amirite? That li’l ragamuffin, huh? Such a character.”

mozz , (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

This is just British way of speaking.

“I’m in a spot of trouble”

“Off, that was a nasty business”

A lot of times the mild language is used for stuff that would get kicked off Liveleak for being too extreme

SteveFromMySpace ,

It’s also just kind of a dated way of talking, I understand the context and all of that. Doesn’t make it any less funny to say out loud

mozz , (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

In “The Ballad of Bill Hubbard,” Roger Waters plays a clip from a World War 1 veteran talking about some of his trauma from the war. He talks about finding a friend of his who’d been lying alone in a trench for days and nights with a probably-fatal wound, and then trying to get him out. How did the guy summarize his situation when the speaker first found him?

“Cor, hello Razz, I'm glad to see you. This is my second night here. I’m feeling bad.”

crapwittyname ,

It’s not just the British, the Irish indulge in this too.

30-year civil war at the end of four centuries of sectarian violence: “The Troubles”.

The deadliest conflict in human history (WWII): “The Emergency”

Don_Dickle ,

I understood some of that what is Liveleak?

mozz ,
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

An old video site known for having some stuff that was too extreme for YouTube (people dying or etc)

isles ,

It definitely stands out, maybe as our vernacular has shifted so far to hyperbole, that every statement is “slamming, blasting, annihilating”.

SteveFromMySpace ,

I could certainly see that

solsangraal ,
Varyk OP , (edited )

Sorry, I don’t get your reference.

Do you mean he’s not racist because Jewish isn’t a race?

In other quotes, he’s much more clear that he’s talking about Israeli people, like with zionism.

“I’m certainly anti-Israeli and I’ve become anti-Semitic in as much as that you get a Jewish person in another country like England strongly supporting Zionism. I think they should see both sides. It’s the same old thing: we all know about Jews and the rest of it. There aren’t any non-Jewish publishers anywhere, they control the media—jolly clever thing to do—that’s why the president of the United States has to sell all this stuff to Israel.”

It definitely seems to depend on which aspect of Jewish or Israeli culture or stereotypes he has problems with.

For good reason of course, Jewish rights organizations talk about themselves as Jews rather than as Israelis.

Not exactly the funnest mud puddle to skip through.

downpunxx ,

fun fact: neo nazis refer to jewish people and brown people, as "mud people", and use the term as their rallying cry for whom they wish to rid the white race of

zephr_c ,

People discriminate against each other for all kinds of stupid reasons. Yeah, the word racism gets used for groups that aren’t actually genetic in nature sometimes. Let’s not be pedantic about the terminology used to describe discrimination against groups that have been the victims of genocide though.

solsangraal ,

i mean i’m against all religions, but i’m not going to let anyone call me a racist because of that

Microw ,

Well if you say there is “a trait in a group of peoples’ character” then you should be called racist. This has nothing to do with being against religions.

solsangraal ,

so…if you condemn scientology, then you’re a racist?

Microw ,

It’s not about who you condemn, dude. It’s about what exactly you condemn them about. That really shouldnt be such a complicated concept.

solsangraal ,

it’s not complicated. “jewish” is not a race. simple

shakcked ,

There is a word for that though, bigot. Racism is effectively a subclass of bigotry that is more specific. If we have a word for it already we should use that instead.

solsangraal ,

thank you, this is what i was getting at

Nougat ,

Secular Jews would likely disagree with that.

solsangraal ,

secular jews call themselves a race?

Nougat ,

There's plenty of non-religious people who identify as Jewish, yes.

solsangraal ,

There’s plenty of non-religious people who identify as Jewish, yes.

right. but the question was: according to secular jews, “Jewish” = “race”?

Nougat ,

If not race, then what?

FundMECFSResearch ,

ethnic group

solsangraal ,

you can convert to judaism and literally become jewish, even though you weren’t born into a jewish family. setting aside all the shit going on in politics right now, you cannot “decide” to become a different race

Nougat ,

"Jewish" can describe race, ethnicity, culture, nationality, religion, or any combination of the above, depending on who's using the word and in what context.

solsangraal ,

in what context is jewish a race?

Nougat ,

Since you seem to be hung on semantics, perhaps a definition is in order:

Race is a categorization of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into groups generally viewed as distinct within a given society.[1] The term came into common usage during the 16th century, when it was used to refer to groups of various kinds, including those characterized by close kinship relations.[2] By the 17th century, the term began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits, and then later to national affiliations. Modern science regards race as a social construct, an identity which is assigned based on rules made by society.[3][4][5] While partly based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning.[1][6][7] The concept of race is foundational to racism, the belief that humans can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.

To the extent that "race" is even a real thing (I'm of the opinion that it's not a useful or productive way to categorize people), many people do classify themselves and others using that terminology, for good or ill. It would generally be in the context of biological heritage ("bloodlines," ew).

I wonder if @FlyingSquid would have something to add here.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I would personally prefer the word ‘ethnicity’ to ‘race.’ As far as I’m concerned, if you want to associate me with a race, it would be white. The problem is that a lot of white people don’t see it that way. See Elon Musk saying “you have said the actual truth” to the guy who said that Jews were oppressing white people. But I’m not going to let those people get their way. I’m white.

I have all of the same privileges that come with being white in America that every other white person has and I share in the shameful responsibility white people need to take for racism, both institutional and personal. I really don’t want to say I don’t benefit from that unfairness or share that burden because that wouldn’t be true.

solsangraal , (edited )

really, it comes down to usage. science may not be able to pin down a “scientific” definition, and it absolutely is a construct–but isn’t everything that isn’t defined by a mathematical formula a “construct”?

so if we’re stuck with using terms like “race” whether they’re “real things” or not, then i think it’s important to distinguish how they’re used. i will not agree that “jewish” is a race in the same way that “african american” is a race, because although both groups face oppression, one of them is a choice, and the other isn’t

though it has to be said, that according to judaism, if your mother is a jew, then you are too, whether you want to be or not. i call bullshit on that

hi @FlyingSquid !

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Hello!

though it has to be said, that according to judaism, if your mother is a jew, then you are too

Only religious Judaism. Many Jews consider someone a Jew if they only have a Jewish father. Such as in the case of my daughter. I’ve yet to have anyone claim she isn’t Jewish. I’m sure some Orthodox asshole would, but he’d say I wasn’t Jewish either because I married a “shiksa,” so…

solsangraal ,

gotta love those pesky socially constructed rules and regulations…

paraphrand ,

So the terminally online could be considered a race with a certain perspective. Interesting.

(I don’t say this to diminish or reject the definition. I just find it interesting to think about.)

Though maybe as others point out, it might be an ethnicity?

downpunxx ,

ah yes, the important distinctions, undercutting jewish peoples desire not to be targeted as a people, that "though" is every antisemites wet dream, it's encompasses and undermines all argument

solsangraal ,

www.myjewishlearning.com/…/are-jews-a-race/

The short answer is no — Jews are not a race.

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