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salami0 ,
@salami0@lemmyhub.com avatar

You guys are allowed to leave work?

ExLisper ,

Switching to an EV is not “free”. You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for “EV first” generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don’t have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we’re currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don’t revolt.

BlackNo1 ,

how about evs arnt the fucking solution and build some fucking decent infrastructure

Whom ,

They absolutely are not The solution but even if a gargantuan government project to make America a public transport-first country started today (and god knows the political will is not there yet), people would need SOMETHING to use which isn’t as directly awful as traditional ICE vehicles during the many years it would take to switch us over. I want to live in a nearly 0 car world as much as you do and absolutely support political causes which bring us closer to that, but figuring out what to drive on these awful roads we have everywhere is a question that we can’t avoid answering.

ExLisper ,

Even with the absolutely best infrastructure (which few places in the world have because it’s really hard to build and maintain) public transport will still mean lower comfort for vast majority of people that use cars now. People in cities with frequent connections and many, well places stops already use public transport. Everyone else will prefer a car as long as they can afford it. People will not choose public transport if it’s a bit less comfortable for the good of the planet.

TheObviousSolution , (edited )

I mean, worst case, just buy and bring a gas generator with you if you think you are going to be reaching those limits. With an EV, anyone can have a plug-in hybrid (albeit much less convenient).

M0oP0o , (edited )

I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range is fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don’t call market demands “fear mongering” just give me more range.

I don’t need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.

pythonoob ,

I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.

EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.

Socsa , (edited )

As someone who has been driving an EV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.

littlecolt ,

Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.

CaptainProton ,

More or less exactly how every major political issue works: people with no or extremely limited personal experience repeating things they’ve been told by someone in their tribe.

Wrench ,

I have owned an EV for a couple years. Range is constantly on my mind. Did we charge it last night? Crap, we had a 70% charge and need to go across town. If we end up running side errands, we may be cutting it close" etc

Far more mental overhead than the combustion engine car we also use.

I ultimately like the EV, but don’t pretend that it’s biggest draw back shouldn’t be a point of discussion anymore.

TheRealKuni ,

This is how I feel about the EV range…on my PHEV. We get 40 miles max (30 in the winter) in full EV mode, and so we stress about whether we can get through our daily trips on the battery. (Of course, when our relatively small battery runs out we just use gas.)

But if we had the range that modern full EVs have I cannot imagine having range anxiety on an average day.

partial_accumen ,

Are there no (or few) DC fast chargers in your city? In your described situation, I’d have no problem pulling into any number of DC fast chargers for 5 minutes to put $1.75 of kw into the car to give me plenty of charge for peace of mind.

Wrench ,

They are pretty far inbetween, but they do exist. Definitely going out of your way to get to one

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?

misophist ,

Is this a concern with electric vehicles? I haven’t heard of this being an epidemic that we even need to worry about.

unreasonabro ,

can we just start calling it tardtalk

Patches ,

Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?

Generators aren’t very expensive relatively speaking.

Yet I’ve never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.

hakobo ,

An average EV consumes .32 kilowatt hours of electricity per mile. If you are driving 60 miles per hour, that means you are spending 19.2 kilowatt hours of electricity every hour. So you need a generator that’s at least 19.2 kilowatt. Tack on some more because you are now towing the extra weight of a generator and because you are probably wanting to go 70mph and let’s just say you need 25 kilowatts. This is what a towable 25kw generator looks like. It costs $22k. I’m sure cheaper ones could be made, but even at $10k, is it worth it? Just buy some plane tickets or rent a gas car for a week or take a train.

herogenerators.com/…/25-kw-caterpillar-towable-di…

_Analog_ ,

Buy? No thanks I don’t even have a good place to store it, never mind maintenance.

But I’d rent it.

Only wrinkle: backing up. I’ve owned/used trailers many times so I have no problem with backing up, but many would. Can’t think of a way around this that would be even “almost” idiot proof.

Buddahriffic ,

Could use a trailer that stays directly behind the car. Like instead of just a ball hitch, have several mount points on the rear of the car, then it won’t swing freely. Maybe rig it to only use one wheel when the vehicle turns (otherwise I think it would cause a bit of understeer).

Though people do learn how to use trailers. Some truck drivers even know the black magic of backing up with multiple trailers.

Duallight ,

I think it’s because someone who takes enough Road trips to use something like that would properly just get a regular plug in hybrid. That being said, this might be coming soon for ev trucks actually. The dodge ram ev is going to have a gas powered range extender, and I believe ford has patented a bed mounted version for its ev truck.

GladiusB ,
@GladiusB@lemmy.world avatar

Safety as well. Generators are not built for all the regulations the DOT has. It’s a different thing to transport a generator and then actually having it fixed to a vehicle as a usable entity.

randon31415 ,

What if the generator was inside the front of the car - and only turned on when the battery was low? Wait, I’ve just re-invented the hybrid.

Patches , (edited )

Yeah okay but almost nobody is making Plug-in Hybrids and they cost an absolute fuck ton of money.

You also don’t need the generator for 99% of rides so you can remove it to reduce costs.

Look at the new “Ram Charger” that works like you describe. It’s 60k and for whatever reason needs a 600hp engine and a full electric engine.

vxx ,

It’s a massive waste of energy. What does a good diesel generator have, like 20% energy efficiency? Not taking into account that you’re wasting a lot energy for towing it.

It would also have to be massive.

Patches ,

Why would It be diesel?

Besides what exactly is the alternative if there is no charging location on the way?

Just spend $150/day to rent a car in addition to all other travel expenses?

lightnsfw ,

Probably be more efficient to just have a towable battery you charge ahead of time.

partial_accumen ,

Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?

Lets work through some back-of-the-napkin math here.

Lets say the average speed you’re looking to take on your road trip is 50MPH. For that discharge rate you’d need to be able to charge at 50MPH to keep up. That would put you at a charging requirement of 50kw.

Here is a picture of a 50kw towable generator:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9e71af93-3be9-4d1b-9a7e-5458f63fa0c9.png

This isn’t even any of the additional gear needed for DC rectification and power management needed to interface with NACS or CCS.

and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.

You can see why this idea doesn’t really work then.

Buddahriffic ,

I’m going to need to see your work for the 50mph to 50kw conversion.

Patches ,

1 Kw per mph sounds pretty bad. I would’ve thought electric cars are more efficient than that.

Buddahriffic ,

Also one is a force while the other is a speed. You’d need a lot of assumptions to go from one number to another single number.

Lazz45 ,

Googling a rough average returned 0.346 kwh/mile for electric cars between 2000 and 2022 (wide range, im aware). Traveling at 50MPH, you go 50 miles in 1 hour (assume you’re already going 50, and stay at that speed). So you’d use [0.346KWh/mile] *[50 miles/hour] = [17.3 KW] per hour @ 50 MPH

billwashere ,

Range anxiety is basically a myth or at least a real anxiety masquerading as range anxiety. Who hasn’t been out on the boonies somewhere late at night running out of gas and wondering if you were going to make it to a gas station … the real anxiety is refuel anxiety. As soon as universal fast electric charging stations are ubiquitous this “range anxiety” will suddenly disappear. Most ICE cars only have around a 300-400 mile range tops (unless maybe the hybrids) and that is never talked about. It’s not range that is the problem.

Heck 95% of my driving would be more than ok with 50 mile range if I could charge at work and it only took a few minutes to charge. An ultra capacitor car would likely fit this bill.

billwashere ,

Well dang … unpopular opinion I guess.

But I stand by what I said. I just want an EV thats cheap with fast & ubiquitous charging. Give me those 3 things and even with crappy range and I’d dump my ICE car like yesterday.

theyoyomaster ,

Where I used to live and work near Hartford range anxiety wouldn’t be an issue. Where I now live and work in Oklahoma it still is an extremely big issue. A friend in CO with an EV wanted to come visit but couldn’t make the drive in one day due to charging options. Hell, if I want to go on a 4 hour drive to Amarillo I need to carefully plan my fuel stops because there’s hundred mile stretches where I can’t even fill up my Ford Focus, let alone charge a Tesla. Range anxiety is a legitimate concern for much of the country.

hakobo ,

For much of the country in terms of land maybe, but not in terms of people. Most people live in or near high population areas where using an EV is fine. The person in question saying that fear mongering needs to stop was the governor of Connecticut. Connecticut is not Oklahoma. There is zero reason to fear monger range anxiety in Connecticut.

But even for people in places like Oklahoma, there’s a couple things you should consider. First is, don’t rush out and buy an EV just because you feel like you’re being told to. Only buy an EV once your existing vehicle is no longer viable. Buying a new car when your old one still works is not very green. But definitely consider an EV when the time comes, even if you have range anxiety. Why? For one, the money you will save on gas can allow you to rent a gas car for those long trips you need to make and then you don’t have to put those extra miles on your own car. Remember, tires are expensive and wear down with miles driven. Or, with the money saved from gas, you could take a bus, a train, or possibly even an airplane. Or if you really don’t want to do any of that, you could probably find a buddy who still has a gas car and trade for the week. Just because you buy an electric vehicle, doesn’t mean you are now locked out of ever using a different kind of transportation. But number 2? Over the coming years, EV infrastructure will be constantly increasing. Yeah, some states are being regressive at the moment, but they will turn around. So even in places were range anxiety is legitimate, it won’t be a problem for much longer, except in those edge cases where even a gas car currently has issues, but since even a gas car has issues, it doesn’t make a difference. And third? There are so many companies working on battery tech right now, it’s crazy. Some are working on higher energy density so we can get longer range, others are working on better materials so we can stop using unethically acquired minerals, some are working on making batteries that function better in the cold. None of this helps the car you buy today, but it will help the car you buy in 5 years.

theyoyomaster ,

There’s a reason I specifically opened with how in CT it isn’t an issue before explaining that in the majority of the country (notice I said country vs the population) it still is. Like the CT governor you still seem to not quite grasp the reality of what it is like to live somewhere other than a built up urban area. There are no buses here, there are no trains here. If I wanted to rent a gas car, I need to drive 120 miles to the city because there isn’t a rental option in my town (which actually qualifies as a “city”. It’s an hour drive to the nearest movie theater. While NYC alone has more people than the entire state of OK, there are still millions of people living here that simply can’t get by with an EV for day to day lives, let alone if they want to make a trip by any transportation method. Add in the fact that even with current developments and proposals battery energy density is a hard limit of physics and chemistry, unless a completely new method of energy storage is invented it will always be 1/100th of what gasoline has meaning EVs will continue to be absurdly overweight. Don’t worry, I’m not in a rush to sell any of my ICE vehicles, at this point I might literally hold onto them forever because there isn’t a single car being made new right now that I like better than anything I currently own.

verdantbanana ,
@verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

some states like Tennessee have removed EV infrastructure the charging stations

how is range not an issue

RainfallSonata ,

How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Build out the infrastructure. Have your car for local trips, switch to trains for anything else.

Chriswild ,

Ideally I’d like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I’d prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.

RainfallSonata ,

Same, but tearing down and rebuilding cities is a feature, not a bug. Well, except for the carbon emissions involved in doing that.

blackn1ght ,

Surely buses make way more sense for local trips.

JamesFire ,

but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.

We did it once, we can do it again!

Chriswild ,

I don’t disagree but I also don’t think it will be something that can be done very quickly. While switching propulsion systems in cars can be fine till the time that they are not needed.

lagomorphlecture ,

The Biden administration is working on improving train infrastructure but if you look at the map of what they’re adding, it’s limited to a very small section of the country. I mean, it’s like cross country but it’s such a massive country that it’s still super limited.

verdantbanana ,
@verdantbanana@lemmy.world avatar

funny how biden said rail workers are not allowed to protest and ask for higher wages and better worker rights in general then bam comes out with expanding train infrastructure

someone is definitely looking out for his actual constituents

MasterInu ,
@MasterInu@lemmy.world avatar

Corporations are people too. Please think of the bottom line and its feelings would ya

wikibot Bot ,

Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:

Corporate personhood or juridical personality is the legal notion that a juridical person such as a corporation, separately from its associated human beings (like owners, managers, or employees), has at least some of the legal rights and responsibilities enjoyed by natural persons. In most countries, a corporation has the same rights as a natural person to hold property, enter into contracts, and to sue or be sued. Granting non-human entities personhood is a Western concept applied to corporations.

^article^ ^|^ ^about^

unconfirmedsourcesDOTgov ,

Yes, we should invest in trains, but this is not a short or even medium term solution. It’s also horrifyingly expensive in many parts of the US, and broad public support simply isn’t there. So in the mean time we need to adapt using the infrastructure that already exists.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

Years ago, I, a brit, was in Austin Texas for 7 weeks for work. During that time I thought it would good to go see New Orleans. I was like “I’ll just jump on a train and read and sleep until I’m there.” This what I had done in Europe. I had my error explained. So I drove. I mean, it was kind of interesting to see the different landscapes, but it was also really boring and time consuming. Basically got there, spent a few hours, and had to turn round and drive back.

Why the hell doesn’t the US have a passenger train network??

limelight79 ,

We do, it’s just very limited. Actually in Austin I think you could have pulled it off. You could have taken the Texas Eagle to San Antonio, then the Sunset Limited to New Orleans. It would have taken 27 hours and the Sunset Limited only runs 3 times a week, so if you departed Monday at 6:30 pm you’d be in NO Tuesday at 9:40 pm. Bon Voyage!

Just kidding. As a rail fan, it bugs me, too. My wife and I spent two weeks in Germany, visiting multiple cities, and we used a private car once (a relative gave us a ride) and a taxi once. Otherwise it was all trains and the occasional city bus, plus one motorcoach that took us to Neuschwanstein. It was pretty nice.

jabjoe ,
@jabjoe@feddit.uk avatar

It was a bit of a culture shock to be honest.

BigBenis , (edited )

I’ve had an EV for 9 months now and I’ve actually experienced far less range anxiety with my EV than with my previous ICEs. This is due to the fact that because I can charge overnight in my garage I almost never leave home without a full battery. Versus before with my ICEs where I’d often be driving across town on fumes because I’d forgotten to fuel up the night before.

I drive in the city/urban areas the vast majority of the time so 200+ miles of range is plenty for my day-to-day needs. I’ve honestly never run into a situation where I’ve been worried about running out of juice; I rarely even get below 50%.

As for longer drives, I’ve done several 600+ mile road trips without issue. Sure, charging takes a bit longer than fueling up at a gas station but the opportunity to stretch my legs, rest in the car, or get a bite to eat does wonders for reducing road fatigue. As for finding charging stations, I’d recommend planning your route beforehand but the charging network is dense enough in my region to where I can usually choose to skip a station if it’s too busy and try the next one.

set_secret ,

This has been my experience too, I’ve put 90k on my EV in the past 2 years. I’ve never experienced range anxiety, and I live in Australia which is a similar size to USA and we do regular road road trips of 5 plus hours.

Road trips in EVs are actully more chill because the car informs you where and when to charg and you never wait more than 30 mins to complete a charge, which frankly is how long you should be resting between 3 hour driving stints anyway. Evs actually discourage driver fatigue which has to be a plus no one mentions too.

Every single range anxiety issue I’ve read about has been from a person who almost certainly doesn’t own, and hasn’t driven an EV or has some weird preserve petrol agenda.

Socsa ,

Yup, this is the part people seem unable to wrap their heads around. Waking up with a full battery every morning and never needing to play the whole “I probably have enough to make it to work and back” game is insanely liberating.

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