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Episode Discussion | Star Trek: Strange New Worlds | 2x05 "Charades"

LoglineA shuttle accident leads to Spock’s Vulcan DNA being removed by aliens, making him fully human and completely unprepared to face T’Pring’s family during an important ceremonial dinner.

Written by Kathryn Lyn & Henry Alonso Myers

Directed by Jordan Canning

theothersparrow ,
@theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

T’Pring’s pop wins the award for chillest Vulcan and most loyal malewife.

electrorocket ,

LOL Vulcan food and air must do wonders for human biology.

G59 ,

Nooo I want T’Pring to be happy :(

mlekar ,

I always wondered how she ended up so sour and scheming in Amok Time … well here we go. Another 10 years or so of this will do that. Props to the writers.

JWBananas ,
@JWBananas@kbin.social avatar

Given the way that T'Pring and her father were acting, I thought for sure that all four of them were transformed into humans.

deweydecibel ,

I can’t be the only one that felt Ethan Peck’s human Spock was very similar in tone to Ezra Miller’s Barry Allen…

Not in a bad way, either.

deweydecibel ,

By far the best moment was Pike’s face when he noped out of the scene after Spock revealed the deception.

Leer10 ,

His 90° turn sent me squealing I had to rewatch it. I love how Pike is supportive and a better model of masculinity.

Continuumguy ,

I would not be opposed if episode five of every season of SNW involves Vulcan Hijinks.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I’ve seen a great amount of curmudgeonly criticism of this episode in other places.

Can’t understand it really. There really seems to be a contingent of fans that just don’t want to have fun.

deweydecibel ,

That’s exactly what it is. They have an extremely narrow and boring definition of what Star Trek is “supposed” to be, and revolt against anything that steps outside that, be it comedy, action, whatever.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

Some of the criticisms fall in another category of beating on SNW’s alleged canon ‘violations’.

These include assertions that Chapel ‘isn’t the same person’ as she doesn’t have the same temperament/personality as in TOS, Uhura not having met or known of T’Pring before Amok Time, etc., Spock would have been ashamed to have eaten animal products (bacon), T’Pring’s ears have the wrong shape

While I can be quite critical of incoherence in plot threads or characters within a single show, especially in a single season (say in Discovery season two or every season of Picard), to me that’s a problem in how a set of writers are telling a specific story.

I’ve come to realize that the fans who just can’t get past continuity changes they can’t resolve immediately across the entire history of the franchise just aren’t going to enjoy SNW as much as I am.

I classify these inflexibilities as:

  • not being open to the possibility that the characters may grow and change,

not being open to the possibility of characters being unreliable narrators or saying things ironically in later shows (e.g., in TOS Uhura might tweak Spock about T’Pring to press him to identify who she is, even if she personally knew exactly who she was),

refusing to accept that minor changes in timing, visual design, technology and characters are possible due to intertemporal interference as long as the Prime continuity maintains key/essential events.

In the end, hanging out here to have conversations with folks who are a bit more flexible is a better choice for me.

skfsh ,

Identifying potentially unreliable narrators is such an underrated strategy! So a character says “The Federation has never encountered this race/phenomenon before.” Off to Memory Alpha to state this as fact! But of course, people state beliefs as facts, incorrectly, all the time in real life!

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I find the implicit assumption that everything onscreen is ‘fact’ exasperating.

More episodes than not depend on guest or recurring characters providing inaccurate, incomplete or outright deceptive information. In many cases, the plot hangs on whether the hero crew can deduce or find more evidence about what’s actually going on.

To assume that everything not directly contradicted in an episode is true is boggling.

Shdwdrgn ,

I think the problem with that is a TV show has a limited amount of time to set up a problem and then solve it. The truly great writers can get around this by spreading information out over multiple episodes through a season, and it gives them more time to deal with incorrect information, allowing the characters to recognize that some information is actually false and then adjust course. In fact it can make for a great plot twist to build on bad information through a season and then reveal everything we’ve been told is in fact wrong!

However when your plot is limited to a single hour, you simply don’t have the time to find out something is wrong, the characters just have to charge forward with what they know, assume everything is factual, and execute a plan to fix the problem. And in many episodes the build-up barely leaves any time for getting things resolved.

It would be nice to see more huge multi-episode plot arcs though. I’ve seen it happen in some seasons of Doctor Who and it’s just incredible when they pull it off smoothly because you get little hints along the way about something but no real context about what it means until it all gets put together at the end of the season. Would love to see more of that in Star Trek. I think Discovery used that in the first couple seasons but then lost it, and nothing else really stands out for me in previous shows.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

We do have even so numerous examples of self-serving perspectives and irreconcilable reports across the episodic shows.

Take Lwaxana Troi’s belief that Picard is attracted to her, which Picard denies vehemently. Lwaxana is a formidable telepath. We are given to believe that her perception is some kind of middle age woman’s foible, and Picard is to be believed because he’s the hero. Do we ever see the factual truth confirmed? No.

So, I am more than willing to let main characters be wrong in their recollections or perceptions even if it’s not absolutely confirmed in the shows.

Hogger85b ,

I am not sure I agree with your series Vs episodic approach truly great writers can tell a story in a an hour or a short story. I mean House MD became formulaic but it's first few series the fotmula of two misses and hit (you could check the angle of the minute hand to see where you were) did work and made highly popular single hour whodunnit.

Shdwdrgn ,

I guess I just feel like there’s something to be said when you have what seems to be a minor side story taking place through multiple episodes, where you get a little info here and there that doesn’t seem to be related, but then it all gets pulled together. And sure, there are some fantastic stories that take place in a single episode. Still one of my favorite episodes is ST:TNG “Cause and Effect”, and I remember being so pissed at the TV station at the time for totally screwing up the airing of the new show until I figured out what was going on.

I just feel like ST in general adheres too much to the doctrine each episode being completely self-contained. Sure there are some broad-stroke changes that occur, but there’s also an awful lot where you can watch episodes in any random order and not miss a thing. Or maybe I’ve just missed a lot over all these years and simply not realized it.

dethstrobe ,

ENT actually did this, which is odd to think how pioneering that series was at the time.

But there were several plot lines that built up over the series and some which didn’t even have pay off until the last season just before the series was canned.

Shdwdrgn ,

It’s been a long time since I watched that series, it wouldn’t surprise me if I’ve forgotten a lot.

Acid ,
@Acid@startrek.website avatar

There’s also another side to it which is that there’s a very big difference in what TOS fans and TNG era fans would consider proper Star Trek.

I’ve always held the belief that SNW is very much a spiritual successor or prequel to TOS, and while TNG was a sequel in some ways to TOS it was a very different tone and style and it’s some what jarring for people who never really got into TOS to accept as Star Trek.

People think that witty banter and quips were something new to SNW but TOS was full of them the entire relationship of the Trio was built on them, or the goofy scenes where someone would do something silly like Scotty getting drunk with comedic music etc.

This combined with as you mentioned above some slight alterations to canon drives people up the wall and it’s just silly. Enjoy the show for what it is or just don’t watch it.

Tired8281 ,

I feel like I’ve heard more people complaining about people complaining about this episode than I actually heard complaining about this episode. Feels sort of preemptive.

StillPaisleyCat ,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

You’re fortunate to have missed the complaints elsewhere then. It really seems to be an episode that has very strong reactions, but isn’t outright controversial.

The reaction here seems overwhelmingly positive. Even the fans on old Trek BBS is mostly giving the episode high marks.

But the review by Trek tie-in author Keith Di Candido at Tor is quite critical, and that group of commentators seem largely to have followed.

The old sub has more than the usual quotient of nitpicks, but also enthusiasts.

Trek Movie is one of the few that takes the middle ground saying the episode ‘misses its mark’.

Tired8281 ,

I laughed my ass off, and it was still Star Trek to the core. What’s not to like? They are killing it this season.

felixxx999 ,

A few thoughts on the rewatch:

Chapel having to explain her feelings for Spock to the alien was kind of a teenage show thing. BUT the more I think about it the more I realize that TOS had aliens with simple, sometimes pure, goals. So I think these aliens fit right in with ST.

The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well (Musk, Stacey Abrams). I’ve heard it mentioned on Shuttle Pod show that the actors could not change a word of dialoge to protect the show from sounding of our time. Of course the joke of using that phrase will fade so maybe it’s OK.

What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium? Was it a joke that went over my head? Could someone explain?

ValueSubtracted OP ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

What was that bit about Pike’s girlfriend looking for Dilithium?

Pelia, the new engineer, is out looking for dilithium - not Batel.

It was previously established that Pelia and Amanda are friends.

marian ,

The “ancient alien” line may not age well. They are usually very careful not to put references to our time due to it not dating well

What do you mean? which line, what reference?

felixxx999 ,

They were referencing to the meme and history show Ancient Aliens. Nyota.

lowvisnitpicker ,

I agree about reference to our time, but the Lorca’s Musk line works because he’s from the mirror universe. I’m not sure that’s what the writers intended, but I’ll take it.

teft ,

Let’s answer the real questions here.

What should we call this relationship? Chock? Spapel?

stuck ,

Crock?

emptyother ,
@emptyother@lemmy.world avatar

SpockH

siewyuk ,

Chapock!

electrorocket ,

Schpackel

theothersparrow ,
@theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

Asking the hard-hitting questions.

deepthaw ,

The main thing I disliked is that it kinda of removed any chance of us getting a “Spock is split into his human and vulcan halves by a transporter accident and they totally don’t get along with each other” episode down the line.

teft ,

They already did that with B’Elanna. Why retread old ground?

dethstrobe ,

Because they can always do it better the second time. Like Time Squared and Cause and Effect are both time loop episodes, but Cause and Effect is way better.

lagomorphlecture ,

Ok, bit they could still do a transporter accident where Spock gets merged into one being with, say, an annoying alien from the Delta quadrant.

skfsh ,

I sort of kept thinking this was kind of like a reverse Tuvix.

FormerGameDev ,

we have already seen human Spock and Vulcan Spock battle, though. Although it was a dream.

Meowrilena ,
@Meowrilena@mstdn.fr avatar

@ValueSubtracted they really decided to bet everything on this Spock - Nurse Chapel thing, haven't they? Not a fan.

Nice comedic episode nonetheless.

CaptainProton ,

Things I liked: Ethan Peck and Mount have some great comedic chops. Many funny lines throughout, generally enjoyable.

Things I did not like: Never been a fan of altering Spock’s backstory with T’pring. Chapel doesn’t even know that Spock was engaged in Spock Amok. Please stop the T’pring stuff, also maybe it’s time we saw some Spock instead of all this funny stuff.

The entire part where Chapel has to explain her feelings to an alien felt juvenile and stupid.

Overall an ok episode.

original_reader , (edited )

The part of confessing feelings was really badly done. It seems like no one in the writer’s room had a better idea at that point and then they ran out of time.

ValueSubtracted OP ,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

This comment was removed because it was not constructive.

stant ,

deleted_by_moderator

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    ValueSubtracted OP ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    This comment was removed because it was not constructive.

    ricdeh ,
    @ricdeh@lemmy.world avatar

    Sorry but I’m frustrated with all these boomer pseudo-fans demanding that SNW not contradict some obscure details of TOS. It’s a massive constraint that would severely limit SNW to the extremely dated and boring storytelling of 60’s Star Trek as well as their archaic and narrow social picture back in the day, and I am very happy that the writers are resilient enough to explore new avenues for Star Trek. I much prefer SNW’s variants of the characters to anything that was produced in old Trek.

    CaptainProton , (edited )

    Spock’s engagement came as a shock to everyone in Amok Time and that was part of what made the episode interesting. It was not some obscure detail. The storytelling in TOS isn’t boring, especially not Amok Time, one of the best episodes in the franchise. As for the social commentary this episode did nothing new so I don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Also, narrow social picture? The new shows have been pretty timid in this regard, far more than TOS was for its time. Picard gave us an uninteresting token lesbian relationship that no one can care about and Disco gave us a non-binary character who had to explain her use of pronouns to the characters. Buckle up, non binary people, you’ll still be weirdoes 300 years in the future, according to Star Trek at least.

    Advice: if different opinions about a TV show bother you to the extent that you feel the need to insult those who have them maybe it’s time to disconnect from social media for a while and come back with a cooler head.

    Edit: I know that if you are a younger fan you probably have not watched TOS and your limited exposure to different kinds of media probably makes enjoying it a tall order for you; it might as well not exist. You should keep in mind, however, that many of us genuinely enjoy it and you have no right to call us pseudo-fans just because you don’t like it.

    StillPaisleyCat ,
    @StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

    deleted_by_moderator

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    brandoncarey ,
    @brandoncarey@vivaldi.net avatar

    @StillPaisleyCat
    I'm genx with an elder sibling that watched TOS during it's initial broadcast, so I grew up on a steady diet of Trek, loved TNG when it started and am loving SNW so far (still in s01).

    A couple of choices have gotten the old single raised eyebrow, but less "that ain't canon" and more of a "huh, that's a cool twist" kind of way.

    Whatever they're doing with Trek these days, I'm eating it up. Lower Decks, too, for what it's worth.

    ValueSubtracted OP ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    This comment was removed because it was not nice.

    original_reader ,

    My last comment was deleted because it wasn’t constructive enough. Let me try to remedy that.

    I completely agree that the confession part was not done in a way that fulfilled it’s possible potential. It felt forced and rushed. It was such a prominent plot point that had been built up for a while. IMO it would have been better for her to talk to a friend like Uhura who knew what was going on anyways. This could have made for an intimate character development moment. Like so we had more of an “alien of the week” moment.

    YoBuckStopsHere ,
    @YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world avatar

    I keep watching this series and saying, see this is what we want. This was a fun episode that hit all it’s marks, science and technology, social issues, and an awesome story.

    ValueSubtracted OP ,
    @ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

    Who is “we”?

    psychothumbs ,

    Me and @YoBuckStopsHere

    siewyuk ,

    Me and @psychothumbs and @YoBuckStopsHere

    theothersparrow ,
    @theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

    Me and @siewyuk, @psychothumbs and @YoBuckStopsHere

    theinspectorst ,
    @theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

    I really enjoyed this episode. The whole cast of SNW are really strong but Jess Bush has been a particular highlight - I'll admit I was cautious when I first heard they'd cast some Australian model as Chapel, but that caution was gone by the end of episode one and she's become easily one of my favourite characters. Ordinarily I don't tend to find that Star Trek romances do much for me but they've now got me invested in Chapel and Spock.

    With hindsight my only mild criticism of the episode is the premise that a human Spock would be more emotional than the Spock we know. We constantly hear that Vulcans feel emotions more strongly than humans, but have learnt to embrace logic to control them - i.e. their nature is more emotional than humans but their nurture counterbalances this. So wouldn't a human Spock (with biologically human nature, but the nurture that Spock carries from his life experience being raised as a Vulcan) actually be super rational and logical?

    goGetF1 ,

    The episode acknowledges this at the end, when Spock says Vulcans feel more deeply. What I think we need to remember is that Vulcans have mental capabilities humans don’t. Human Spock literally did not have the same tools available to him that Vulcans do. It’s likely why Spock has more trouble with his emotions than full-blooded Vulcans.

    theinspectorst ,
    @theinspectorst@kbin.social avatar

    That's a good explanation of it.

    ByDarwinsBeard ,

    He also points out that human emotions are different. I assumed this to mean the the rhetorical tools he uses to control his Vulcan emotions are ineffective on human emotions despite Vulcan emotions being stronger. It’s like having a vaccine for the flu, but still getting a cold.

    theothersparrow ,
    @theothersparrow@lemmy.one avatar

    So wouldn’t a human Spock (with biologically human nature, but the nurture that Spock carries from his life experience being raised as a Vulcan) actually be super rational and logical?

    I reasoned that whatever tools Spock employed failed for one of two reasons:

    1. Vulcan responses to emotion are extreme: surprise isn’t just surprise it’s abject terror, happiness isn’t just happiness but absolute mf hype, disappointment is more like a spiral of depression. Since human response to emotion is much more measured by comparison, he’d need time to recalibrate… time he didn’t have.
    2. The procedure that removed his hybrid nature removed whatever moderation was done to him. As a normal human he may not even have a katra anymore, so it’s possible that whatever physiological changes that take place after kolinar aren’t there because not all of the physiology is there.
    astroturds ,

    I needed the laughs this week and it totally delivered for me.

    Star trek always does this to me, they introduce some character or change to a character that I initially would not agree with but they always make me love them. I’m going to miss human Spock now.

    When they said they were bringing the Kirk’s into strange new worlds I thought it was a terrible idea, now I keep thinking how great a series with the new Kirk would be.

    When seven turned up in voyager I knew it was because of sex appeal and the FHM magazine culture of the time so I was against it, now she’s my favourite character and I cried when she was made captain.

    Whe Pike and Spock turned up in discovery I thought that was a bad idea, now pike is my hero and I never want SNW to end and Ethan Peck is totally smashing it as Spock.

    Human Spock? What a shit idea. But, I absolutely loved it.

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