How common is it for atheists to be against homosexuality/abortion?

stergro , 10 months ago

Not every atheist is a humanist or even pro science, so they definitely exist. For example some regions in East Germany have a high Atheist rate and a very right wing population.

sturmblast , 10 months ago

lifelong atheist here and I was always taught to live and let live so do whatever the fuck you want it’s your life

NekoKamiGuru , 10 months ago

I can only speak for myself, I am a centrist gen Xer and I don’t give a damn about homosexuality or abortion . I personally think they should be background noise and unimportant issues when other issues are being considered. I neither support nor oppose these issues , because I have limited emotional energy and I would rather worry about important issues.

kava , 10 months ago

I sort of agree. I think we should a) have gay marriage be legalized and totally equal and b) decide as a society what date is OK. Whether that’s 3 months or 5 months I don’t really care. Then make it a law and move on

But remember, just because it doesn’t matter to me or you (I’m not gay or a woman and I’m guessing neither are you) doesn’t mean it isn’t important to a lot of folks. Abortion is something that can dramatically improve a young girl’s life for the better. Instead of raising a kid at 19 maybe she can go to college and begin a career. Not only is her life improved, we have a productive member of society.

Of course, we lose out on population growth but I’m more of an individualist than collectivist. I think we can always just import immigrants to solve population issues.

So I support whatever the average woman wants do with abortion.

But yeah I agree that we focus too much on these culture war issues and not enough on economic issues. For example economic inequality or distribution of wealth.

forsen , 10 months ago

I am very similar and I agree with this, specially with the limited emotional energy. It is physically/mentally not possible to handle all the bad shit in the world; I only focus on those around me. For example, I only have one homosexual friend, but I never speak about sexual topics anyway so that never comes up. I will never take part in a gay pride parade, but I will also never stop it or oppose it. This goes on for many topics as well.

So yeah, fairly neutral on such topics, and prefer to stay neutral. Even for topics I don't agree on, I still try not to pick a side. "But you should be pro-X and pro-Y because of Z!", no, take my neutrality as a sign that I am not against your existance.

Globulart , 10 months ago

My dad is an atheist and whilst he would never openly tell you he’s against homosexuality. He is a homophobe in almost every sense of the word, he’s had conversations with friends at the pub about how worried he was that I was gay (I’m not, I’m just not a rugby player drinking 10 pints every evening). He’s not against abortion as far as I’m aware, though I would imagine he’s in favour if only because it protects men against unwanted children.

My brother “came out” to him to see what his reaction would be and he essentially disowned him there and then. Neither me or my brother talk to him much anymore, he’s very right wing and refuses to admit it. Failed upwards for most of his life and is quite bitter about anything existing which he isn’t 100% on board with. I think his parents were somewhat religious but not aggressively so, he went to boarding school which could have something to do with it but I don’t know any details about why he feels the way he does. If I asked him he’d just deny it despite all the evidence anyway, I think in his mind that as long as you SAY you’re OK with it you can’t be homophobic by definition

I remember him advocating strongly for every drug dealer in existence being executed, no exceptions. I then pointed out that I would be executed in that scenario because I was suspended from school for giving someone some hash and he didn’t really know what to do with himself. Everything is jet black or bright white to him, there is very little room for any shades of grey.

jhoward , 10 months ago

I’ve not known any. But it also seems like those things have a correlative and not causative relationship.

Epicurus0319 , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

I’ve only met one who was somewhat like that: my roommate in freshman year at college, he was surprisingly conservative for a US atheist and thinks abortion should only be legal if the pregnancy is life-threatening or the product of rape/incest. And it wasn’t just that issue, he had these really weird and often messed-up takes on a lot of things to the point that one can’t completely dismiss the possibility that he might just be fucking with people by exaggerating how conservative he actually is.

Though to be fair he didn’t seem to have anything against at least the L, G and B (heck, for a good 8 months he dated a girl who openly admitted to being bi on like day one of their relationship and their breakup had nothing to do with it) but that’s a very low bar these days, now homophobia in America is creeping towards extinction and, now down to 25% of the electorate (whereas a good 55% are unfortunately still transphobic), is little more than a middle-school phase except in a few really specific areas like Florida.

Firipu , 10 months ago

My elderly father would probably catch on fire if he steps into a church. But he shares basically all social values with hardcore Christians.

You can be a non believer, that was raised in a certain belief system and as such share their shitty values. I would imagine this is much more common with older atheists/agnostics/don’t-care-about-religion,-only-myselfionists

electrogamerman , 10 months ago

I wonder what is the excuse of non religious people that are against homosexuality.

At least religious people have the excuse that a mighty superman god person said that homosexuality was wrong.

Do non religious people just hate homosexuality for the sake of hating it?

Thavron , 10 months ago

There’s a fairly easy argument to be made that since gay people can’t reproduce, it’s not natural.

This is not my pov, but it’s an easy argument.

electrogamerman , 10 months ago

What about infertile heterosexual men and women? Are they also unnatural?

(Asking in general, not you OP)

Firipu , 10 months ago

Not their choice, but “Homosexuality is a choice”.

To use a really dumb argument I’ve heard before.

Firipu , 10 months ago

I’m fairly certain he’s against it due to his upbringing and never bothering to question his “beliefs” on the topic.

“Homosexuality is weird and wrong” (and it makes me doubt my own sexuality and masculinity) is probably the only driver behind it.

kava , 10 months ago

Yeah I think a good example is Jordan Peterson - AFAIK he’s an athiest. And he’s a hard-core conservative. What i found interesting is I remember his debate with Zizek and he was visibly shaken / nearly brought to tears when Zizek did his bit about Christianity being the most atheistic religion.

Where Christ says on the cross “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?” -> “father why have you forsaken me”

God himself in human form came down to Earth and in his moment of torment lost faith. Zizek argues this is quite a radical thing and this is why Christianity is the most atheist religion. I think it is a bit profound although you never know with Zizek. He says a lot of cool sounding stuff but sometimes mainly to shock.

Mothra , 10 months ago

I’ve met people like that, I think those against abortion are more common and their reasoning is that the child is alive from conception or the moment its heart starts beating, and it deserves human rights from that moment. This idea is independent from any belief in god.

Same goes for homosexuality, personally I think it’s because some men (I’ve never met a non religious homophobic woman) find their own sense of masculinity or sexual identity challenged. I’ve never met a young person like this, all the examples I can think are from people who should be at least 50 yrs old today.

And honestly? I think it’s more of a cultural thing. I think I’ve met these types of people just as much as I’ve met backwardly religious types. In some countries you have a lot of religious thinking but not in others.

Lemmylefty , 10 months ago

The question as posed paints with very broad strokes. I’m guessing by “religious people” you’re probably thinking of American christians of the larger denominations.

Why do you think that religiosity is necessary to oppose queer people? In my experience, opposition to the queer community and expressions of queerness is tied to views on gender and conservative/regressive views overall. While there is certainly overlap between orthodox/regressive religiosity and said roles, you can still see a lot of bigotry from people who don’t care about what any god says, they just think “that limp-wristed fairy isn’t a REAL man”.

As with anything outside the mainstream, the experience of being an atheist (and being “out” as an atheist) can lead people to question more things that are considered normal and empathize with others, but it isn’t a given.

Sometimes deviance enforces a sense of humble and earnest examination of common truths and connection with others and their own struggles, and sometimes it enforces the view that this person knows better than the crowd so no need to really question what is definitely their own views.

schwim , 10 months ago

Neither impacts me in any appreciable manner so I don’t think much about it.

scarabic , 10 months ago

What do you. Mean by “being against homosexuality?” This can mean:

Finding it distasteful.

Thinking it isn’t real or healthy.

Speaking out against it, trying to shame or stigmatize it.

Promoting its criminalization.

I don’t really care if people want to do 1 and 2 as long as they keep it in their heads.

Riccosuave , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

I think a better question would be:

How common is it for secular humanists to take a stance against access to abortion (and/or) equal rights under the law for people who identify as something other than heterosexual?

I think the atheist part of the question is a bit strange since it really only informs us about whether or not a person has a belief in a god or deity, where as secular humanism tells us a bit more (in theory) about the social ideology of an individual.

I personally hate equivocating atheism with anything else other than the god/supernatural/intelligent design question because it can further justify the slippery slope of lumping other topics in with atheism as though it is a prescriptive ideology like religion tends to be. However, I understand what you are going for by asking this question, and I don’t want to be overly pedantic.

To answer your question:

I think, as another poster already said, it probably matters if we are talking about people who self-identify as atheists vs. people who don’t believe in god/gods but don’t spend a lot of time thinking about their beliefs.

Generally I would venture to guess that in the first group there is a large majority who also self-identify as secular humanists, and probably take a more progressive stance on access to abortion as well as equal rights for all people regardless of sexuality/gender identity. I’m not sure I have ever met a self-identified secular humanist who took an oppositional position on either issue.

As far as people who do not self-identify as secular humanist, I would say it probably mirrors the support for the issues in a relatively similar way as the general population in their geographical area.

Jakeroxs , 10 months ago

Secular Humanism ftw

jmanjones , 10 months ago

I just want to say, I really like your comment - it felt the most right to me. You take in a lot of considerations and all that. I like that.

Riccosuave , 10 months ago

Thanks, I appreciate that mate. I’ve watched a lot of Atheist Experience, Aron Ra, and other YouTube commentators over the years. With that I learned the importance of specificity and explanation of terms when forming a response or argument.

That’s what I personally respect and enjoy so I try to make that a part of my discourse whenever I can. It isn’t for everyone, and I have gotten called out for being overly verbose more times than I care to admit 😅

Hyperreality , 10 months ago

Not sure about the US, but a lot of former soviet countries are virulently homophobic, despite high levels of atheism.

China and Japan are also quite homophobic too, despite something like 80% of the population being atheist.

Closer to home, the UK has far more atheists (google suggests almost twice as many) than the US, but is also TERF central with plenty of homophobia and transphobia.

Gullible , 10 months ago

Supposedly china, a country that’s largely atheist, also has issues with homosexuality. Weird how persistent that trait is.

BadAdvice , 10 months ago

Hole is hole. If you don’t want something going into or coming out of your hole, that’s your right. No imaginary friend in the sky has a say in that

Zippy , 10 months ago

What if you are 1 week away from birth of a fetus that is fully developed and healthily. Do you think aborting a fully developed baby should be acceptable at that stage?

I am hard core pro choice but that example would be grotesque even to me. Obviously it is the most extreme example but I am sure if it was legal, someone would do it.

Point being your black and white statement is not well thought out.

Lemmylefty , 10 months ago

An “abortion” at that gestational stage is induced labor.

pizza-bagel , 10 months ago

That's not how medical procedures work. You don't get to go to the doctor and request whatever legal procedure you require on a whim. It's a decision made between a doctor and patient, without the government involved. AT ANY STAGE. That is the point.

Besides, do you really think someone is going to go through 8 months of pregnancy just to abort for funsies? That is "planned parenthood turns fetuses into chicken nuggets" level of delusion. You are really underestimating the physical toll taken on the body by pregnancy.

If someone got to 8 months, and they go to their doctor and discover the fetus is going to be born only to suffer and die in their arms, the government should have 0 say on how that medical decision is handled. Which is what late term abortions actually are.

BadAdvice , 10 months ago

Hole is hole. If you don’t want it to come out, you have that right. At that point imo it’s kinda on the hospital to decide to save the baby. The woman has until birth to decide whether or not she can handle that responsibility. If the hospital is told to terminate a viable baby so close to birth, it’s down to the hospital to decide to go through with the termination or decide to deliver the baby themselves and accept the legal responsibility for that child. The mother has made her choice and that’s that.

NeighborlyNomad , 10 months ago

I’d say there is no good reason for it not to be legal, even if it’s disgusting. Someone who waits that long shouldn’t expect there to necessarily be a doctor willing to perform the procedure for them though.

Pandoras_Can_Opener , 10 months ago

I’ve been born to people who didn’t really want kids. I admit this colours my perceptive n greatly but yes I’d never condemn a new life to not being wanted/going into the foster system. The damage that you do to someone by not having a good caregiver is immense and I dearly dearly wish I had been aborted. I think it’s sad that so little of the debate centers around the needs of the child once it is born.