There have been multiple accounts created with the sole purpose of posting advertisement posts or replies containing unsolicited advertising.

Accounts which solely post advertisements, or persistently post them may be terminated.

superkret ,

Who’s the anti-genocide candidate in this election?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Jill Stein, Cornel West orLibertarians.

superkret ,

How are their chances?

Tar_alcaran ,

Less than zero

Ummdustry ,

youtu.be/l7l9QmtiXHU?si=Hn6YbJdl9Ya0XOPH&t=46

Rhynoplaz ,

I never really got this. Sure, we ALL want world peace, but what are you expecting to happen?

Hamas is attacking Israel, so I understand Israel wanting to protect themselves, and take out terrorists, but blowing up random Palestinians is NOT the way to do it.

The only way a third party can end someone else’s war is by obliterating one of the sides.

However, an American leader CAN directly shape American policies, so I’m going to support the Dems to avoid cataclysmic damage to our country, rather than shit on them for not solving someone else’s problems.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

I never really got this. Sure, we ALL want world peace, but what are you expecting to happen?

Israel is attacking Palestine, so I understand Palestinians wanting to protect themselves, and take out terrorists, but blowing up random israelis is NOT the way to do it.

Rhynoplaz ,

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say with this response. I agree with the reversal completely. I’m willing to listen, because I am sympathetic to all the very real destruction happening over there, but can you explain how shitting on Harris benefits Palestine at all?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Very simple. Enough people withhold their votes and the Democrats will be forced into a ceasefire

Do you think Joe Biden retired for funsies? They looked at the polling and dumped him. And as I was right about before, while everyone told me otherwise, nobody likes Biden anyway.

Rhynoplaz ,

You say they’ll be forced into a cease fire. Do you think that’s something they can just flip a switch and make it so? That’s an ongoing war on the other side of the planet involving at least three groups of people. In the meantime, you withhold your vote and Trump becomes president again. Now what?

We gotta get Harris there before we start asking her for favors.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do you think that’s something they can just flip a switch and make it so?

Yes quite literally in one phone call. Do you not think israel is fully dependent on the US?

We gotta get Harris there before we start asking her for favors.

Why do you think the Palestinians should suffer from three more months of Genocide? The Democrats are in power right now.

Harris has already stated she will keep shipping weapons to israel this week.

Rhynoplaz ,

Ok, so let’s assume there is no change in the US stance on Gaza. You and anyone you’ve convinced, don’t vote. Trump supporters are unaffected. Trump is now president. Then what? Have you made the world a better place?

Linkerbaan OP , (edited )
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Standing up to Genocide is a game of chicken. It means potentially losing if the total amount of chickens is too big.

If enough voters grow a spine however the Democrats have no option but conceding or face certain loss.

lengau ,

Enough people withhold their votes and the Democrats won’t have the power to do anything about a ceasefire, but Donald “finish the job” Trump will have the power to make the genocide even worse.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Good thing Democrats have the power to force a ceasefire right now and need exactly 0 votes to do so.

lengau ,

They don’t. But even assuming they did, withholding a vote is going to increase the chances of a party who want to make things worse getting into power.

Your choices are between a terrible status quo and making the situation even worse. Why are you so intent on defending the choice that makes things worse?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do you know how a strike works?

lengau ,

You do understand that this isn’t a strike, right?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What happens if one person goes on strike?

They get fired.

What happens if enough people go on a strike?

The company has to cave.

There is no difference between this and a strike. Just like with striking if enough people are willing to take the risk the goal will be achieved. If not it results in a loss.

By actively opposing the activism you are ensuring the goal will not be reached. Which in the end will not even be to your benefit if you want ceasefire voters to vote for Harris.

lengau ,

In your analogy, Republican voters are the massive number of scabs coming in to replace the striking workers and thus making the strike ineffective or even counterproductive.

But also… You do understand that this isn’t a strike, right?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

People who keep voting for poor policy are the scabs. Republicans are an entirely different company who have bad policies. We want to not become that company.

lengau ,

Ahh, I see… You’re confusing the shitty, corrupt union (Democrats) with the company (the USA).

We need to fix the US electoral system so that we have better choices. But until we can do so, we need to do harm reduction. Accelerationism, including in the form of not voting or voting third party, is not harm reduction.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

There is no fixing the electoral system. You’re not going to fix a company from the inside. They will ban ranked choice voting if it ever starts gaining traction.

Two major examples of this are Bernie Sanders being ousted by the establishment when he was about to win in 2016 and UK’s Jeremy Corbyn who got straight coup’d by Zionists because he was about to win.

Democrats will use every dirty trick in the book they never use against Republicans if someone comes up who will challenge the establishment. The moment the elite is endangered they will break every single rule in the book to overthrow their challenger.

You cannot change the system from the inside if the people are the top have already proven they will never allow that.

lengau ,

With such a defeatist attitude, why do you even care who people vote for?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What defeatist attitude? There’s plenty of third parties to vote for.

Voting for Democrats while they commit Genocide claiming it’s hopeless. I can’t think of anything more defeatist than that.

lengau ,

Voting for third parties is tied for the second most effective way to increase harm. Without changes to the electoral system (changes I personally do believe are possible, despite your defeatist attitude), third party votes will always be spoiler votes. The only way to more effectively increase harm is to vote Republican.

Voting for Democrats isn’t a good long term strategy, but it’s the only strategy that has any hope of actually keeping my trans friends around so they can see the long term, and it’s the least bad of all the options right now. Voting third party, or not voting, is effectively a 1 vote swing away from the Democrats to the Republicans, whose policies are pretty clearly to make the genocide in Gaza worse and to start other genocides and forms of suffering. Voting Republican is a 2 vote swing towards that.

So I’m choosing the least bad option, and the option most likely to open up better options down the line. You’re choosing an ineffective option and then pretending to have the moral high ground even though what you’re choosing is ineffective virtue signaling.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

hmd.org.uk/…/first-they-came-by-pastor-martin-nie…

lengau ,

Encourages people to vote in a way that’ll make a genocide of LGBTQ+ folks more likely

Posts that poem

https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/c6cc0c35-b169-4d8a-ad8b-813af0f715a5.gif

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do you know why that poem has more than 2 lines?

lengau ,

It’s not so that people can play holier than thou while completely missing the point, but you can continue to do that despite the author’s intent.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

But I wasn’t a Palestinian so I didn’t speak out.

lengau ,

Voting third party is also worse for the Palestinian people given that it gives Donald “finish the job” Trump a better chance at the White House. This has already been established - it’s not my fault you’re ignoring facts that are inconvenient to your pre-selected conclusion.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Whats the difference between Trump or Harris finishing the job?

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the Democrats are keeping the Genocide going right now and you can’t blame Republicans for that.

lengau ,

The current situation still has the Democrats with a less evil perspective. Evil? Yes. But less evil than the Republicans. And moreover, as you’ve yourself said, the Democrats are movable on the topic. Third parties are not a viable alternative, and 2016 showed how easily voting third-party can lead to a worse alternative. You don’t have to like it. You can and should protest against Harris’s current stance. But Harris is also the only electoral option that gives us a chance of getting better policies.

So, going back to that poem: voting for the Democrats is the most effective electoral way to speak out for both the Palestinians and the LGBTQ+ community (along with many other groups the Republicans would target). Voting is necessary, but not sufficient.

BTW, on a different topic… those are some interesting hours you keep. What time zone is that? GMT+3?

rastro ,
@rastro@sh.itjust.works avatar

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/0fa672fe-96c4-45c8-9e75-05f0c73f5691.jpeg

lengau ,

Most liberals kinda hate anti-abortion single-issue voters though…

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

They love pro abortion single-issue voters though.

Which there are far, far more of.

lengau ,

Do they? Most liberals I’ve spoken to on the topic seem to mostly be glad that people who were previously anti-abortion single-issue voters are now realising that their previous stance was perhaps not the best idea.

paddirn , (edited )

Except for southern “blue dog” Democrats, Abortion is a relatively “safe” topic to pander to single-issue voters on because the only people hyper-opposed to it are single-issue voters on the other side who were never going to vote liberal anyways. There’s virtually no down-side.

Israel is a more thorny & nuanced issue for Democrats though and not as clear cut. Israel is committing genocide and we shouldn’t be supporting them, but there’s alot of Jewish-American voters in key states, you’ve got AIPAC and a plethora of other Jewish/Israeli lobbies with alot of influence, you’ve got big military contractors who like Israeli money, and then you’ve got bigwigs in the military who see Israel as a strategic partner. Completely dropping support for Israel risks upsetting alot of interests and handing them over to Republicans to be used against Democrats. It’s shitty, but I’m assuming that’s the calculus going on with Democratic leadership.

Also, Israel is much much less reliant on the US for aid than in times past, and I think there’s a fear that if we stop supplying them, somebody else will and then we’ll have absolutely no influence over anything they do. We have much less influence over them than alot of people think. If they saddle up with China or Russia, the gloves come off and I think we’d see it much worse than it is now. As hard as that is to imagine, it can always get worse. And if we let Republicans get control, it will get worse.

zeephirus ,

sooo what you’re saying is… MONEY MONEY MONEY!

agamemnonymous ,
@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works avatar

Also, Israel is much much less reliant on the US for aid than in times past, and I think there’s a fear that if we stop supplying them, somebody else will and then we’ll have absolutely no influence over anything they do.

It seems like the prevailing narrative tries as hard as it can to bury this fact. Unilaterally withdrawing aid doesn’t magically make Israel stop what they’re doing, they can easily get support elsewhere. All unilaterally withdrawing does is throw away our only real bargaining chip to try and nudge them toward ceasefire.

Keeponstalin ,

Who else is going to provide military aid to Israel? They are increasingly a pariah state

Visstix ,

What does genocide have to do with voting though? Is there a choice? With abortion there is.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

There are plenty of voting choices against Genocide. They just so happen to not be Democrat (or Republican).

Visstix ,

So… No?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Jill Stein, Cornel West, even the Libertarians if you’re more right wing.

BrokenGlepnir ,

There is no such thing as magic in this world, but if there was a magic genie that would let me bet my life that one of those people you mentioned would not be president six months from now, in exchange for a Twix ice cream bar, even if you had convinced the entirety of all lemmy federated servers to vote for them, I think I’d take it up.

kevindqc ,

Voting for them = throwing your vote away

lemmy.world/…/d67f1c33-fef7-4c7b-ab9c-0bca58799c5…

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

If the percentage of third party voters gets high enough Hillary will give a very angry speech about the “radical left”.

Rhynoplaz ,

If the percentage of third party voters gets high enough, Trump wins. We’re not making that mistake again.

lengau ,

So your options are three people who have absolutely no chance of getting even a single electoral college vote, let alone a majority. Or in other words, to potentially feed the spoiler effect.

Being a single issue voter doesn’t make sense at the best of times, but when it means you’re voting for someone who has no chance of winning and potentially helping an even worse candidate get into office, it’s even worse. If we had ranked-choice voting on a nationwide count, it wouldn’t be as bad (and would be fine if after you’d voted for those candidates on the one issue you actually weighed in between the major candidates), but that’s sadly not the world in which we live.

Go ahead and vote third party if you’re in a state like Alabama where there’s no chance of a difference regardless. But in a swing state, third party votes can and do add up to lives lost.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What’s there to spoil?

lengau ,

Well purely on the genocide topic… While both major parties appear to be okay with one genocide, only one of them appears to want to do their own genocides within the US.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

There’s a difference between doing it against foreign brown people or American brown people?

lengau ,

Where on earth did you get that from my comment? If one genocide is bad, surely that same genocide (although arguably made more effective) plus an entirely separate, second genocide is worse?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You’re saying the red line is at 2 Genocides not 1 Genocide?

lengau ,

You’re very good at misrepresenting what people say. Are you saying that 2 genocides is not worse than 1 genocide?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No I’m finding out where you stop voting for Democrat.

Say Trump does 25 Genocides and the Democrats 24. What are you voting for?

lengau ,

I will always use my vote to the maximum effect of harm reduction. Why aren’t you?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So you’re voting third party?

lengau ,

I said harm reduction, not living in a fantasy world.

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Are you reducing the harm or participating in it?

lengau ,

Any action, including inaction when you can act, is participating. I’m choosing the most effective way to minimise the harm.

Why are you trying to encourage people to take actions that have the result of making the situation worse? Why are you supporting more genocide?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

You are the person voting for Genocide and actively supporting it. It seems you are projecting.

lengau ,

Repeating a debunked claim doesn’t make it true.

just_another_person ,

I can’t wait until you’re as bankrupt as your morals you genocidal giving shill. Shame on you.

Fades ,

Yes Kamala is in favor of a two state solution and thinks more should be done to protect the innocents caught in the middle, and Trump told Netanyahu to “finish the job”.

Quite the choice.

Visstix ,

Ah I was thinking it was genocide vs genocide+. But that’s an even easier choice then.

riodoro1 ,

two state solution

That’s the thing they say when they mean „I don’t give a shit people are dying, israel does what it wants”

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So Trump is honest and Kamala lies to get votes?

Guess who “is in favor of a two state solution” as well: Biden says he’s pushing a 2-state solution. Let’s put him to the test.

Liberal memory capacity is a sight to behold.

mygoodsir ,

Jill Stein. No one said you have to pick your favorite of the 2 Hitlers to vote for.

ExotiqueMatter ,
@ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml avatar

The single issue voters on abortion voted blue, that’s why they have no problem with those.

ynazuma ,

What?

Did you get dropped on your head repeatedly as a baby?

Linkerbaan OP ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Look who showed up

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9f12d743-7d6d-48e6-ab72-a5ca3294277a.png

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • [email protected]
  • random
  • lifeLocal
  • goranko
  • All magazines
    •