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kwomp2 ,

Donā€™t go down the ā€œnatural balanceā€ kind of revenge fantasy. It only makes one comfy in passivist boundedness. Also the guy in the picture is far more likely do do just fine in a climate catastrophy than you. Gaia nature god lady wonā€™t bring you any justice, at all.

Allonzee OP , (edited )

Itā€™s not about justice. Itā€™s about homeostasis. The guy and possibly his kids will be fine in their luxury climate bunkers as the world grows more bleak and they bark orders remotely until thereā€™s no one left alive or dumb enough to keep listening.

The thing is though, what weā€™ve done and are doing right now will take millions of years to heal. Nothing to Earthā€™s 3.8 billion year old story of life, but effectively eternity to our monkey brains. I just donā€™t see our species putting down our shovel and living within our ecological means when that would mean necessary decline in our quality of life and intentional population control over time. We were warned for a century. We are feeling the effects. Scientists are noting new runaway effects conservative estimates didnā€™t account for. We need to stop 30 years ago, and we wonā€™t even stop today.

I donā€™t consider it justice, I consider it wholesale refusal as a species to live within our ecological means. We just keep digging, and the consequences, the physics, donā€™t care why.

kwomp2 ,

Of course your base argument - capitalist economy is ecolocically destructive and dysfunctional regarding the needs of the many.

ā€œUntil there is noone left to fulfill their ordersā€ thats the kind of ā€œjusticeā€ iā€™m talking about. Like, Homoestasis will put them down in the end. Justice will be served. But thatā€™s deceptive satisfaction.

kwomp2 ,

Edit (cant properly edit on jerboa rn) ā€¦ your base argument is right.

Allonzee OP ,

Justice would be them dying and the many societies people like them destroyed for self-enrichment that lived in equilibrium with nature, like the Native Americans, thriving again.

I agree with you. Justice isnā€™t on the table.

Rozauhtuno ,
@Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

OK doomer.

ganymede , (edited )

necessary decline in our quality of life

iā€™m not refuting your core premise.

but on the note of this issue, not sure i can agree.

have a look at this public infrastructure technology from 122 years ago:

Youtube/Invidious

imagine if weā€™d spent the last 1+Ā¼ century collectively working towards the utopia this kind of project hinted at - instead of developing new machines to destroy?

typically they say utopian dreams scatter in the face of increased technological awareness. have to say my experience has been the opposite.

the more i learn about technology, the more i realise we could probably be very close to a near-utopia by now. for some suspicious reason we took a very different road, and here we are.

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

Yeah I donā€™t know. Just see how the modern world is shaping society to the negative. Generation Instagram/TikTok all want to be influencers, thereā€™s growing mental illnesses. Fertility rapidly declining (and it isnā€™t unfortunately all because of education). Capitalism is almost perfected abusing the dopamine system in an unhealthy way. I donā€™t want to be a doomer. I just donā€™t see where we are close to utopia. Which for me would be more sociali(sm) more community, less narcissism/egoism and more solarpunk. But right now we are on a different path. Iā€™m happy to be proven wrong thoughā€¦

Zoboomafoo ,

Thatā€™s why Iā€™ve started trying to disconnect from social media. So far itā€™s been harder then quitting smoking

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

Yep, Internet addiction is real, and so widely socially acceptedā€¦

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Capitalism defeats itself through decline. The decline is a part of the process, join an org and build up dual power so that when it does collapse, there is a ready-made alternative. Thinking and hoping donā€™t get you closer to Socialism.

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

Believe me Iā€™m doing all parts of things towards this, but Iā€™m being realistic, Iā€™m just 1 of 8 billion peopleā€¦ And Capitalism as much as I would like it to be different seems to be a rather stable system (destabilising all sorts of other things, donā€™t get me wrong). I expect other things to collapse first (and foremost ecological systems).

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

peopleā€¦ And Capitalism as much as I would like it to be different seems to be a rather stable system

In what way? Disparity rises and Imperialism gets worse until it eats itself alive. Systems exist in motion, and Capitalism is unsustainable.

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

It is, but I fear it will break apart much later than we hope it is. And likely violently, as worse ecosystems also mean less base on which capitalism can grow which in the past lead to conflicts. I mean the whole stuff gets already unstable when it isnā€™t growing (and I donā€™t mean capitalism as whole, more like everything connected to it)

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

It seems to be breaking pretty quickly.

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

Does it really? How do you come to that conclusion?

I mean climate change is certainly faster than most of the stubborn people, not grasping how much damage has already been done (as all of this comes in delayed and with feedback effects, which are already in motion).

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Capitalism isnā€™t lasting because people are ā€œstubborn.ā€ It legitimately cannot sustain itself economically even without climate change. As disparity rises, and wages fail to keep up with productivity, rates of profit lower and exploitation increases.

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

I mean weā€™re seeing it in the USA already donā€™t we (as one of the more capitalistic examples)? Capitalism is still pretty stable, a lot of are mentally ill (otherwise I canā€™t explain why someone like Trump is so popular). (And physically too). Opiate crisis. Richest country, yet the poorest are living in similar conditions as those in the poorer countries in Africa. I can name more examples of society falling apart, but yet capitalism still being strong (even in the democratic party). I mean I agree with your points (which are undermined by mine), yet that doesnā€™t mean that capitalism is falling apart - and that means IMO that a major part of the people agree (and especially those with power, be it financial/political or military), that the system is is inherently flawed, and needs to be changed. But exactly that is something Iā€™m not seeing anytime soon.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Capitalism is still pretty stable, a lot of are mentally ill (otherwise I canā€™t explain why someone like Trump is so popular).

Then you need to read theory, this is an ableist and immaterial answer. Fascism is an attempt to set the clock back, so to speak, and takes the form of an alliance between the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie along xenophobic and nationalist lines. It is a reactionary response to Capitalismā€™s decay.

I mean I agree with your points (which are undermined by mine), yet that doesnā€™t mean that capitalism is falling apart - and that means IMO that a major part of the people agree (and especially those with power, be it financial/political or military), that the system is is inherently flawed, and needs to be changed. But exactly that is something Iā€™m not seeing anytime soon.

If you understand that the rate of profit trends towards zero, why would you think Capitalism is stable?

fuck_u_spez_in_particular ,

It is a reactionary response to Capitalismā€™s decay

Interesting theory, need to think about that. Though I donā€™t think Fascism and Capitalism are necessarily exclusive. (As example China, which is Iā€™d say fascist and against the usual theory of ā€œcommunismā€ quite state-capitalistic)

If you understand that the rate of profit trends towards zero, why would you think Capitalism is stable?

Because the trend is clearly not to zero currently, thereā€™s a lot of rich people (and the number is growing), profit is still growing, itā€™s just that the gap between poor and rich is also growing. But Capitalism doesnā€™t care about a lot of poor people. How that will be long-term is another story (as said ecosystems are the limiting factor).

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Interesting theory, need to think about that. Though I donā€™t think Fascism and Capitalism are necessarily exclusive. (As example China, which is Iā€™d say fascist and against the usual theory of ā€œcommunismā€ quite state-capitalistic)

China is not fascist. Read Ur-Fascism by Umberto Eco. America fits the commonly accepted fascist points far better than China currently does. China is certainly more liberal than it was under Mao, but itā€™s not fascist.

Because the trend is clearly not to zero currently, thereā€™s a lot of rich people (and the number is growing), profit is still growing, itā€™s just that the gap between poor and rich is also growing. But Capitalism doesnā€™t care about a lot of poor people. How that will be long-term is another story (as said ecosystems are the limiting factor).

The tendency for the Rate of Profit is falling, and will do so even when rich people grow and gross profits rise. Capitalism does care about poor people, wages are tied to subsistence + replacement (child raising), but it will pay no more until Capitalism is abolished. It is, in fact, this vector that drives decay and decline, wages cannot increase beyond it except in low supply labor fields. You may want to read Wage Labor and Capital

ganymede , (edited )

Yeah I donā€™t know. Just see how the modern world is shaping society to the negative I just donā€™t see where we are close to utopia But right now we are on a different path

That was essentially a big part of my point. We could be close to a utopia by now (from the perspective of technological possibilities).

Instead, as I said

for some suspicious reason we took a very different road, and here we are

That said I donā€™t currently believe technology itself is inherently bad.

Like all tools, it depends what you do with it.

Is a general purpose tool like hammer good or bad? It has the capacity for both. And therefore itā€™s up to the user which is which.

And thatā€™s the issue really, what are we doing with our wonderous technology?

This might be a bit of a radical take. But in that ~125 year window i was refering to, alot of machines weā€™ve invented are actually weapons.

Weapons to destroy eachother physically (conflict/threats of violence etc).

Weapons to destroy nature (deforestation and probably most mining).

Weapons to destroy the mind (social media etc, actually most media now).

What if weā€™d had 1+Ā¼ century of building a collective utopia instead of all these weapons?

afaict from the technical perspective itā€™s not really unfeasible, its the non-technical problem: the user and what they use the tools for.

Another clue for us is probably the term appropriate technology, which is a vibe i think eg. solar punk is helping to cultivate.

Anyway weā€™ve done ALOT of misuse. Thatā€™s why i donā€™t blame technology itself.

I still think itā€™s more about what weā€™ve done with it.

DmMacniel ,
@DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

Gaia nature god lady wonā€™t bring you any justice, at all.

for we as a whole really deserve none.

kwomp2 ,

We donā€™t exist as a whole, wich is the political challenge I would like people to focus on.

I think in post religious thinking itā€™s not about ā€œdeserveā€

ZILtoid1991 ,

The irony of the bottom image being AI generated slopā€¦

To the idea guys whoā€™re having their revenge on real creators for not making their ā€œGTA but in a real city and itā€™s both MMO and VRā€ tier ideas a reality: feel free to downvote my comment, call me a Luddite, and demean my artistic skills for me not doing hyperrealism challenges with oil paint.

DmMacniel ,
@DmMacniel@feddit.org avatar

Whelp, it wouldnā€™t be the first mass extinction. Good Luck to the next civilization, hope you fare better than us.

Allonzee OP ,

Be excellent to eachother, dolphin or kangaroo people!

InputZero ,

Just gave me an idea, make a deadpool on what species will replace humanity. Iā€™ll just hold onto the pot until we find out what species wins.

devfuuu ,

My bets are on spiders and racoons.

Tlaloc_Temporal ,
@Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca avatar

Crows or cockatoos. Theyā€™ll eat almost anything they can find, and theyā€™ll find almost anything they can eat. Given the opportunity of an open niche theyā€™re probably take a lot of them, and theyā€™re smart enough to bully house cats.

Ephera ,

wouldnā€™t be the first mass extinction

*isnā€™t

Itā€™s already ongoing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

TheBat ,
@TheBat@lemmy.world avatar

That naturussy got me down bad frfr

DoucheBagMcSwag ,

Grussy

Fosheze ,

I am groot.

victorz ,

Is there a name for the ideology that humans should be wiped from the planet for the benefit of the planet and the rest of the organisms on it?

Allonzee OP ,

I donā€™t think thereā€™s a specific one yet, though insults towards such people abound.

Its certainly an extention of misanthropy though.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misanthropy

victorz ,

Misanthropy involves a negative evaluative attitude toward humanity that is based on humankindā€™s flaws. Misanthropes hold that these flaws characterize all or at least the greater majority of human beings. They claim that there is no easy way to rectify them short of a complete transformation of the dominant way of life.

I thought this was quite interesting. I think I agree very much with

there is no easy way to rectify them short of a complete transformation of the dominant way of life

but not so much with

these flaws characterize all or at least the greater majority of human beings

I just think these flaws characterize all or the greater majority of human beings that possess a relative amount of power. Thatā€™s the real problem. Or perhaps the real problem is that power itself transforms humans and gives them these flaws. Iā€™m not sure if itā€™s the chicken or the egg, kind of thing.

kwomp2 ,

Fatalism is in that mix, too. A very easy way to meet political complexity

victorz ,

It seems tangential, perhaps? Like, accepting the fact that nature is going to kick our asses eventually anyway, is what youā€™re getting at? Let me know if thatā€™s what you were thinking. šŸ™‚

kwomp2 ,

Accepting it is a choice with practical consequences. We should work on understanding what is to change and how and focus on doing it.

Making prophecies about what ā€œEventuallyā€ happens is self handicapping, wich does not help :)

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Eco-fascism, or close to it.

Allonzee OP ,

Eco-fascism would be putting a gun against peopleā€™s head and telling them to stop destroying our only habitat.

Acknowledging weā€™re destroying our only habitat isnā€™t eco-fascism, itā€™s just acceptance of the situation.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Youā€™re erasing the bit where they said humanity must be eliminated.

Allonzee OP ,

Humans arenā€™t saying that, our habitat is in response to our actions, as translated by scientistā€™s measurements.

We can stop. We should stop. We wonā€™t stop.

If that means you want to call our planet an eco-terrorist, thatā€™s actually kind of funny. This isnā€™t about humans killing humans. This is about Humans attacking our only habitat as we rely on it for every breath we take and every bite we take, and our habitat responding predictably to our actions.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Is there a name for the ideology that humans should be wiped from the planet for the benefit of the planet and the rest of the organisms on it?

Pretty clearly asking for an ideology that states that humans should be exterminated.

victorz ,

Yep, that is indeed exactly what I was asking. šŸ‘ The ideology that humans should be exterminated.

catch22 ,

But fascismā€™s primary aim isnā€™t to destroy humanity, it does because itā€™s idiotic, but itā€™s very much the top picture, growthgreed or die.

Fascism is a philosophy that believes the strong should have and the weak can be used and discarded. Accepting were fucked Iā€™d say is more nilism. Will fascists exploit the chaos from humanity idiocy, fuck yeah they willā€¦

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Fascism is a xenophobic and nationalistic alliance between the middle and upper classes against the lower classes. Eco-fascism takes that to extermination levels to preserve the middle and upper classes in the face of environmental destruction.

catch22 , (edited )

Weā€™re all fucked regardless. If you think the facists are going to survive planetary collapse, thatā€™s some wishful thinking.

Ah, but I see from your post history youā€™re also an elitist fascist. Anyone not fully aware of dialectical.materialism is clearly subhuman and must be dealt with accordingly. Of course, all for the good of the ā€œlower classesā€

E: oh Iā€™m on .ml, I though I was shadowed banned all over the tankie wank fests. So, you all still gobbling hard on that xenophobic, transphobe, fascist, imperialist Putinā€™s cock?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Weā€™re all fucked regardless. If you think the facists are going to survive planetary collapse, thatā€™s some wishful thinking.

I donā€™t, Iā€™m a Communist, not a fascist. I donā€™t know how you thought I was implying fascism was a good idea.

Ah, but I see from your post history youā€™re also an elitist fascist. Anyone not fully aware of dialectical.materialism is clearly subhuman and must be dealt with accordingly. Of course, all for the good of the ā€œlower classesā€

What on Earth are you talking about? Why would I think people who donā€™t study Marxism are ā€œsubhuman?ā€ I have never once implied that.

E: oh Iā€™m on .ml, I though I was shadowed banned all over the tankie wank fests. So, you all still gobbling hard on that xenophobic, transphobe, fascist, imperialist Putinā€™s cock?

Homophobia and putting words in others mouths, lovely.

victorz ,

Holy hell. That was out of a clear blue sky.

Take care, bud. šŸ©µ

EvolvedTurtle ,

Eh Same outcome tho

Notyou ,

ā€¦wikipedia.org/ā€¦/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movemā€¦

VHEM for the extreme answer. I think we could follow more degrowth ideas and make good progress, but getting to world to follow degrowth probably wonā€™t happen.

forrcaho , 

<span style="color:#323232;">Our mother grows angry
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Retribution will be swift
</span><span style="color:#323232;">We squander her soil and suck out her sweet black blood to burn it
</span><span style="color:#323232;">We turn money into God and salivate over opportunities to crumple and crinkle our souls for that paper, that gold
</span><span style="color:#323232;">
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Money has spent us 
</span>

www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4EFnt6pbJs

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