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Be a better ~~lemming~~ Motorhead

One of the things that sets Lemmy, and the collective fediverse apart from other platforms is its community. Recently, there’s been a large influx of new users (myself included; thus I apologize if this is not the right location for this post). A toxic trait associated with other platforms is the incorrect use of the downvote. Historically, this function was used to hide comments that detracted from the conversation; however, next to no one uses it as intended, and it’s primarily used as a I disagree with you button.

I don’t think we’ll ever change how the downvote is used now - it’s current use is too entrenched. Instead, I suggest that rather than just downvoting and moving on with something you disagree with, that users expand on why they disagree with the post or comment. Not only does this generate more content, but it also can take the conversation into new areas and offer new perspectives that the OP had not considered. You might even actually change a mind or two by doing so, thus bringing people around to see your side of the coin. Commenting (with civility) on stuff you don’t agree with is beneficial on all fronts. It promotes discussion, and it offers new perspectives. It also minimizes the likelihood of echo chambers forming. That last bit is what I’ve come to value here the most. Other sites are just massive echo chambers where there’s a rote response or opinion. This creates a stale environment for users, and deters people from commenting. Why comment, when you know what the answer will be, or that you’ll be jumped on at the first word of disagreement with the entrenched opinion?

But what if I don’t have time to comment to support my downvote? Simple - don’t downvote unless the item you’re downvoting truly detracts from the conversation (as per the functions original intent).

I realize this is a bit of a rant/ramble, but I think by actively putting more effort into our comments and downvotes, we can make lemmy an even richer community than it already is.

Thanks for taking the time to read,

  • Shovel
rosatherad ,
@rosatherad@kbin.social avatar

I didn't find it very hard to change how I downvoted comments. Of course what counts as contributing to a conversation is subjective, but I don't think that should stop people from using it to decide whether to upvote or downvote. I downvote low effort comments, inflammatory comments, rude comments, and comments that spiral into tangents about unrelated topics. I upvote comments using my own judgement to encourage healthy discussions where people contribute differing ideas. I may not agree with every comment I upvote.

tinwhiskers ,
@tinwhiskers@kbin.social avatar

Be a better lemming and realise this is the fediverse and not just lemmy. Why so specific when it is relevant to all users of the fediverse?

Rentlar ,

Downvoting is a trait specific to Lemmy servers, and not pressnt Mastodon and other Fediverse services with “reacts” (a sad emoji would still count as a “like” on score-based ActivityPub servers)… That appears to be the main focus of this post.

Of course, be a nice member of the internet community is something that should be said across the Fediverse regardless of platform.

ShellMonkey ,
@ShellMonkey@lemmy.socdojo.com avatar

The intent might be there, but functionally it’s a vote of good or bad. The notion of it being up versus down, left/right, red/green doesnt matter, people want an easy way to express an opinion. Look at all the issues it caused when YouTube removed the down vote and people could no longer express disapproval with a click. If someone is being activley detrimental then mod actions come into play at that point.

Ignacio ,

Some instances removed the downvote button. And I think it’s a good decision, personally speaking. If you like it, you upvote it. If you don’t like it, move on. Less toxicity, and less emotional damage when someone has rejection sensitiveness.

AnonTwo ,

Technology is a history of users using things in ways the developer didn’t consider. Honestly if it’s something that isn’t of value to the site, I’d imagine it should be on a report button, not a downvote button.

But you just can’t convince end-users to do things the way you want. Either the system let’s them do it or it doesn’t. And half the time if the system lets them do it, they’ll do it even if it sets fire to the system.

I don’t think it’s of any value to try to change user’s choice of using the system, but rather embrace it and find ways to both better enable the system to use it (and perhaps curb some things you don’t like about it) and then figure out what went wrong with the original intent and try to reimplement that.

rikonium ,

I believe this approach to be vulnerable to Sea Lions since “debating” facts with someone not tethered to, or respecting of reality is a lesson in futility since the time/effort wasted is the goal.

Track_Shovel OP ,

sea lions

That’s an amazing analogy. I love it.

jaydev ,
@jaydev@lemmy.world avatar

I had to think about it for some time. Then I imagined arguing with a barking sea lion. :)

TheAndrewBrown ,
@TheAndrewBrown@lemmy.world avatar

In these cases, I give them the benefit of the doubt and try to provide a rational argument why I disagree with them. It either sparks a discussion/debate or they’re obviously trolling and I downvote and move on. But some people that seem like trolls are really just ignorant and showing them why you disagree can help them shape their opinion.

mremugles ,
@mremugles@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t think that this is the correct way to address this problem. While I agree that downvotes shouldn’t be used indiscriminately, simply urging people to use it in another form isn’t going to do much. If people were better, the world would be better. The problem is that people aren’t better, and so we have the problems at hand.

I don’t know, I think a systemic approach to problems is usually a better way to a solution. Just to give a quick idea, which might be a bad one at that, I think that Lemmy could, by default (with the option to toggle the option), ask the user to give their opinion whenever they downvote. It’s simple and small, but could be the push that people need to actually engage in conversation rather than lazily pressing good and bad buttons. I’m not sure it would work, but I think it’s a step ahead of simply yelling to people “Be better!” and expecting things to change. Just my two cents, though.

Track_Shovel OP ,

Another commentator mentioned that this used to be built into slash dot. Downvoters were given a default list to choose from (with option to expand upon) why they were downvoting.

In the meantime, my shitty little plea to the fediverse is all I got; a mouse fart trying to shift the path of a cultural hurricane

Windex007 ,

To follow on from the last commenter:

As the creator of a major subreddit, I can say that the collective masses can absolutely not be swayed from whatever the zeitgeist is… ESPECIALLY if the action is secret.

So, with that: since Lemmy is free and open source, I think bringing that discussion and possibly systemic solutions there (GitHub?) Would be the most practical way to affect tangible change.

Part of the solution might be to just accept that behaviour, and instead focous on how to mitigate the practical effects. User downvotes without corresponding comments maybe don’t effect the “net upvottedness”. Maybe sorting options that don’t include downvoting at all. If the concern is how naked downvotes affect visibility, maybe the resolution is in the visibility algorithms themselves.

HopperMCS ,

Yeah, I think that would be a good way to start. It may exacerbate flamewars, however.

Roggie ,

I think downvoting to say “I disagree with this is valid in certain cases,” like when u/spez says some stupid shit. Or when bigotry pops up, I don’t want to engage with racism or bring more viewers to it. I want to downvote and move on.

Roggie ,

Edit; should be “I disagree with this” is valid in certain cases, …

penix ,

deleted_by_moderator

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    inverimus ,

    I will just downvote and move on with things that I don’t really want to see in a community like low effort posts. Also, if there is already a good response on why some post is wrong I will just add votes since adding my own reply doesn’t add much.

    Scum ,

    Agree. And I’ll add that part of the reason I lurked Reddit for so long was getting downvoted for no known reason. I know I shouldn’t care, and some people are just inconsiderate, but could you imagine how that would be IRL? Imagine you’re at a party where people are chatting and laughing, you try to get in to the conversation and say something relevant or funny. One person looks at you coldly and gives you a thumbs down and the rest of them shrug and continue talking. Fucking ouch. At least tell me why, or maybe pause for a sec you’re having a knee-jerk reaction and consider your motive, and desired outcome.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    I’m pretty sure I have this reoccurring nightmare.

    lackthought ,
    @lackthought@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    for my own mental well-being, I turned off scores in the Lemmy desktop settings (go to your settings and un-check the Show Scores option)

    the platform is so much more enjoyable when I don’t see post/comment numbers, just the content

    the first mobile app to implement this feature will get my premium purchase

    fiofiofio ,
    @fiofiofio@kbin.social avatar

    Counterpoint: a lot of people on Reddit complain about “you’re just downvoting because you disagree with me” when they’re being downvoted for spreading misinformation, being unnecessarily hostile or condescending or holier-than-thou, posting blatant dogwhistles, or sealioning.

    I’d rather see people in general take a step back and stop taking downvotes so personally. You will get downvoted sometimes. It’s not always an ideological attack.

    Bishma ,
    @Bishma@social.fossware.space avatar

    Disagree with me if you want but I think we should be referred to as Motorheads.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    How the hell do I upvote you more? That’s an amazing perspective.

    OutrageousUmpire ,

    One thing that helps here is that I can see exactly how many upvotes and how many downvotes a post/comment has, instead of an aggregated amount. It adds a level of responsibility, I think?

    Also if you don’t like it, there are instances like Beehaw that don’t even allow downvotes.

    Track_Shovel OP ,

    Solar punk is experimenting with their return, or at least considering it. I don’t have much of an opinion, provided that context is provided, or at least they are used as originally intended.

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