Sup is a New Messaging App by the Creator of Pixelfed

MargotRobbie , 10 months ago

I’m excited for it. I’m hoping it becomes a federated, self-hostable Signal.

It’s way easier to sell friends and family on yet another messager when you tell them “look, it comes with a twitter/facebook/instagram/reddit too!”

smileyhead , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

I am torn up 🤷.

On one hand I just want one standard NOW and am sick of hunderds of apps. On the other hand it is just a Pixelfed client with other view, like DeltaChat is to email.

Edit: fix typo

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

How much is a houndred? Is it more than a dogzon? 😋

boatswain , 10 months ago

I’m much more excited about Veilid than another server-based thing, even if it’s federated servers. Fully peer-to-peer seems like the way to go for direct conversations.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

I’m pretty curious about Veilid, and eager to check it out. But, I believe that peer-to-peer and federated could theoretically complement each other very well, especially when it comes to building infrastructure for this big weird network we’re a part of.

boatswain , 10 months ago

For me, federated networks make a lot of sense when you want moderation and admins. Having a lot of little places with centralized control that can all talk to each other is much preferable to having 5 giant shitty walled gardens.

If I’m going to talk to a friend or a small group of friends directly, then I don’t feel a need to have a centralized authority in the works, which is why I’d prefer peer-to-peer for that kind of communication.

Those are just my preferences though; good luck with the project, and hack on!

ikidd , 10 months ago

This. Maybe something that doesnt want my phone number or require me to sign on from a known device. That shit creeps me out, because I know none of it is necessary.

RickyRigatoni , 10 months ago

Rename it to soup

feral_hedgehog , 10 months ago

WHY ARE YOU SENDING MEMES IN THE SOUP APP?!

glimse , 10 months ago

The name makes me think of the Bro app from Silicon Valley

ram , 10 months ago

Sup Bro?

Swedneck , 10 months ago

Nice CoC!

HellAwaits , 10 months ago

Thanks, I’ve been working on it.

SatyrSack , 10 months ago

Not hot dog

bappity , 10 months ago

something something 15 competing standards

esty , 10 months ago

unfortunately matrix sucks revolt isn’t federated and irc is outdated so

poVoq , 10 months ago

IRC is only “outdated” if you make it so by using outdated networks like libera.chat that refuse to implement the newer standards that have been available for years.

Oh and XMPP is a thing and works great.

Hominine , 10 months ago

Feels like Jabber has been around for a long time. If I’m not mistaken I remember my buddy pimping it as an AIM alternative back in the Napster/mp3 days.

Lucia , 10 months ago

For some weird reason many people just plain ignore the existance of XMPP when they’re discussing decentralized protocols. Is it because Matrix outshadowed it?

poVoq , 10 months ago

There is this wierd meme that IRC is “outdated” and XMPP is “dead”, both of which is completely untrue, but somehow the tech-bro hivemind continues to spout this nonsense when ever the topic comes up.

timbuck2themoon , 10 months ago

AFAIK the most complained about thing with xmpp is that there are so many standards and every server isn’t guaranteed to implement them. That and just being old which is no curse but people take that as a negative sometimes.

It’s honestly pretty good IMO.

Franzia , 10 months ago

Thank you, Ive seen this repeatedly and now Ive been better informed.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

XMPP is fantastic, but I feel as though it suffers from half-baked clients, most of which are a decade old and look the part.

I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found any. Admittedly, I haven’t looked in some time.

lps , 10 months ago

@deadsuperhero
I agree, I use xmpp all the time, but the clients are really underwhelming... Not sure how it's so complicated to give them a facelift to update them while keeping the existing functionality. This reminds me of the debates about the #blender ui in the past, where gray beards argued that the interface was just fine....aesthetics matter;)
@poVoq

Samsy , 10 months ago

Same with K9. But they did finally a really good facelift.

lps , 10 months ago

@Samsy
I'll need to take a look, I haven't used k9 in ages

Samsy , 10 months ago

Its one of the best apps actually. Swipe gestures, openpgp, material you (?).

lps , 10 months ago

@Samsy
Wow, you were right very nice. Amazing what a little polish can do.

Another app that transformed with UI updates is gajim, the desktop xmpp client.

poVoq , 10 months ago

Give it another look. The popular Android client Conversations is getting an UI overhaul right now (unreleased), Monal for iOS has also improved a lot, and this is a promising looking take on a Telegram like UI: moxxy.org

Dino and Gajim also improved a lot on the desktop side. Overall there is some renewed interest by client developers and the Jabber federation is growing again I think.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

That’s really great news! I’ll look into those. 😁

strypey , 10 months ago

@deadsuperhero
> I’d really love to see a “modern” WhatsApp-like take on an XMPP messenger, but I haven’t found any

Have you looked at @snikket_im ?

@poVoq @lps

Terevos , 10 months ago

I just learned about Matrix recently. Seems like something that’d be good. What sucks about it?

AngryDemonoid , 10 months ago

I’m not even close to an expert, but from what I have heard, matrix collects quite a bit of metadata depending on the server you are using/federating with.

Terevos , 10 months ago

Yeah, I have been concerned about that. Looking into self-hosting matrix.

smileyhead , 10 months ago

Yes, it does not protect metadata great. It is visible that you and your interlocutor are talking together and when.

But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems. You rather have less metadata in centralized place for everyone or more metadata but only for small subset of people.

strypey , 10 months ago

@smileyhead
> But noone figured out how to prevent that in federated systems

You've basically got a choice been a centralised service where metadata can be limited but E2EE is mostly pointless (you have to trust the service operators' E2EE deployment), or a decentralised network where E2EE is reliable, but it's harder to limit metadata.

Which one is best depends on the situation/ threat model.

@AngryDemonoid

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

I personally really like Matrix, but there are a few outstanding complaints about it. The biggest one is that the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling. Server admins have had a huge challenge of supporting a large amount of data for things like room history, which in the past required propagation to every server hosting every participant. The protocol itself has been described by some developers as overtly complex.

Some of this seems to be improving, particularly with development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite.

Terevos , 10 months ago

Good to know. I signed up for beeper.com which seems cool. I am a bit concerned about data collection and privacy, so I’m trying to set up my own instance.

Samsy , 10 months ago

And if dendrite fail, we wait for the rust-based backend implementation. :)

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

It’s funny. When I was typing my original response, I was under the impression that Dendrite was Rust-based! 😂 I’m really glad I checked before posting!

Samsy , 10 months ago

Fun fact. I didn’t made a joke. There is a rust based version in alpha state. But I don’t remember it’s codename.

Edit: okay, it has no codename:

github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

Oh, I thought that was just a client SDK. Is it an actual server backend?

strypey , 10 months ago

@deadsuperhero
> the reference implementation everyone uses by default is known to be bloated and slow, and poor at scaling

This doesn't seem to stop the fediverse growing (cough Mastodon cough).

@Terevos

strypey , 10 months ago

@deadsuperhero
> development of a Go-based backend implementation, Dendrite

Also Rust-based homeserver implementations like Construct and Conduit. Both of which are usable, although missing a few nice-to-have added features. Eg Conduit is still working on;

"E2EE emoji comparison over federation (E2EE chat works)... Outgoing read receipts, typing, presence over federation"

@Terevos @Samsy

timbuck2themoon , 10 months ago

Besides the main implementation synapse being slow, the new implementation dendrite is unfinished but progressing.

But technical standards aside, the hassle of managing encryption keys is too buggy and confusing IMO. That’ll deter most people I feel.

I want it to be great but it just isn’t there yet.

smileyhead , 10 months ago

Matrix is getting better on fast peace, we need to give it another yew years to fix biggest holes I guess.

ActivityPub based chat is going to suck much. Like basing chat on RSS or FTP, it can be done but why. Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs then maybeee? But I still would like to just add link to Matrix in bio instead of having chat in yet another place.

spaduf , 10 months ago

Unless we’re talking just about replicating Instagram-like DMs

I think that’s exactly the niche this intends to fill. This is facebook messenger for the fediverse.

jabberati , 10 months ago

deleted_by_author

poVoq , 10 months ago

It seems to be based on the existing Pixelfed php code that uses ActivityPub. In theory the Libervia AP gateway would probably make it work with XMPP, but I suspect the use of libsignal will ultimately still prevent it. Maybe once both sides speak MLS it will be possible.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

Yeah, admittedly I rushed that part, and should’ve taken more time for details. My biggest guess is that the chat app will just be a client for Fediverse server users to sign into, with all the conversations happening off-server in a client. That’s the only way I could think of this working, with the way that the network currently operates.

In the future, it might be possible for a lot of different Fediverse servers to natively support encrypted chat. But, these are all just guesstimates, and I’m not even sure that the lead dev is ready to publicly comment on a set-in-stone policy. Likely, there’s probably a lot of experimentation happening.

maegul , 10 months ago

Do we if it will have scope to do group chats at all or well?

Seems to me that private group chats are significant piece missing from the fedi, especially as they seem to me to be a reasonable alternative platform structure compared to all the doom scrolling engagement stuff that the Fedi has so far more or less sought to simply clone.

uzay , 10 months ago

Groups support seems to be coming to pixelfed soon at least

talou , 10 months ago

Actually, for now @dansup is working on an activityPub library called #pubkit pubkit.net

mastodon.social/

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

He’s working on multiple things at once. Where he finds the energy, I don’t know, but PubKit, Sup, and a few other things are all happening right now.

This one article is part of a series where I’m hoping to put up one feature per day of what he’s been working on. Pixelfed is notoriously hard to cover, because the lead dev is so active.

hitagi , 10 months ago

I wonder how it’ll compare to Matrix.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

I think it’s intended to be more like WhatsApp, in the sense that you use it for one-on-one chats or messaging small friend groups. I don’t think it’s a current goal to try to take on Matrix / Element.

Claidheamh , 10 months ago

use it for one-on-one chats or messaging small friend groups

Those are exactly what I use Matrix for.

smileyhead , 10 months ago

I think it is to just replicate Instagram DMs.

BallShapedMan , 10 months ago

I’m for it, plus I like the name.

blanketswithsmallpox , 10 months ago

What's Sup?

Nothing much, you?

No, what's, Sup?

... Just chillen...

Visible anger.

ZILtoid1991 , 10 months ago

If I ever create my own messaging app, it'll be called "updog".

SatyrSack , 10 months ago

What’s updog?

sanguinepar , 10 months ago

’Who’s on first’ vibes :-)

sabaku_no_gaara , 10 months ago

Kinda shows how what’s up has evolved over the years

What’s up - WhatsApp sup - Sup

9tr6gyp3 , 10 months ago

Oh boy… Another messenger… Yay…

Pechente , 10 months ago

With the open nature of the fediverse I actually see some potential here. Right now there isn’t a single messenger that I truly like. They’re all just different shades of okay or worse.

HidingCat , 10 months ago

What's wrong with Signal?

blanketswithsmallpox , 10 months ago

It feels like I'm doing shady backdoor deals. It's only for the people I conspire with and really close friends...

In which we just end up using regular old sms anyway lol.

poop , 10 months ago

Signal is too darn secure. Much better to have one dude who probably knows how to use a crypto library build the whole thing over again with a coat of ActivityPub on top

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

Signal is great, but the core developer is inherently against federation with his own product. It’s just one giant centralized service.

Lucia , 10 months ago

Mobile-first, requires phone number, proprietary server-side, google play market.

9tr6gyp3 , 10 months ago (edited 10 months ago)

Desktop app works fine tbh.

Phone numbers required for now. Usernames potentially on the horizon per sms removal update.

Server side code is open source and available at Signal Server Github.

Also available on iOS. Android has an apk download so you dont need Google Play.

Lucia , 10 months ago

You still need to install a mobile app first. On XMPP I can create an account even if I don’t own a smartphone.

9tr6gyp3 , 10 months ago

Does XMPP allow e2ee group video calls?

Lucia , 10 months ago

I dunno, never used video calls outside of college (and hell I hate that). I heard Jitsi can do it though, again never tried myself.

poVoq , 10 months ago

Yes, but its early days and only few clients support it. You can try it with Dino.

Lucia , 10 months ago

Seems you edited your comment to add new points. Lemmy doesn’t notify users about changes to comments/posts they replied to, unfortunately.

Phone numbers required for now. Usernames potentially on the horizon per sms removal update.

Good to know. I prefer to never use my phone number for sign ups.

Server side code is open source and available at Signal Server Github.

They seem to put a lot of effort to centralize their app though - you can’t setup your own server and talk to other signal users.

Android has an apk download so you dont need Google Play.

Yes, but you need to figure out how to verify signature keys on android + manual updates, it’s just inconvinent if you compare it to F-Droid Signal devs so dislike for no good reason.

HidingCat , 10 months ago

I don't see the problem with that, it's a phone messenger first.

Lucia , 10 months ago

Well, I’m desktop-first kind of person, so it’s a downside for me.

HidingCat , 10 months ago

Sure, definitely use what works for you. I do like it as a phone messenger that happens to have a functional desktop client (Telegram and surprisingly, Whatsapp do have better desktop clients).

XpeeN , 10 months ago

Matrix (element I guess)?

Pechente , 10 months ago

Doesn‘t quite have the userbase at least for me. I‘m only using it for one work contact and that’s it. I also heard from others who use Element a bit more that it’s quite buggy, although I haven’t experienced that myself yet.

XpeeN , 10 months ago

I just don’t think that new msging app will have a larger userbase than matrix. I hope I’m wrong tho

Swedneck , 10 months ago

Especially considering that they made gitter into a matrix client, and several IRC servers are easily available.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

Nobody is telling you to use it. This originally spun out of development of a messaging app just for Pixelfed, but evolved when the dev realized it could be made to work with any Fediverse account, not just his own server project.

An optimistic view is that it could end up opening the door for end-to-end encryption to come to private messages in Fediverse servers, over time.

9tr6gyp3 , 10 months ago

obligatory xkcd standards

ram , 10 months ago

I think what @deadsuperhero is trying to explain is that Mastodon and Lemmy for example may be able to implement Sup as a part of their softwares too. Currently if you try to DM someone on Lemmy, the options are a Matrix redirect, or Private Messages designated as not secured.

Though I do wonder about the viability of this. People would still need to set up with Sup to receive messages, at least as I understand it. As a result, this would run into a similar problem as matrix, just without needing to use a different federated server and login I suppose.

This would also require that project leads for AP softwares would want to accept the service as a part of their distribution, assuming it even is implmented in such a manner.

TL;DR it’s hard to say anything for certain when details seem to be slim.

deadsuperhero OP , 10 months ago

Yeah, my current guess for how this will work is that users will do an OAuth sign-in dance with their Fedi accounts to a client that is mostly not connected to their personal accounts in any meaningful way, beyond viewing contacts that have also signed in to the client. The client itself could store the encrypted chat, rather than having it reside on any server.

Eventually, we may be far enough along at a point that the ActivityPub protocol could have an enhancement proposal for supporting chat, and apps like Sup could plug into servers in a more native way, where the conversation data lives encrypted on the server.

This is all just conjecture on my part, but it seems like a viable way to work around current network limitations.