I’m not ignoring your foundational premise. I’m pointing out to you that your foundational premise is at odds with that of the people with whom you are speaking, and that at no point have you attempted to address those differences. What is happening is that you are basically saying “I think eating Venus fly traps is non-vegan because…” and other people saying, “okay, I disagree with that perspective.” There’s no synthesis to take place. You just have thesis and anti-thesis and no attempt at making anything new from that difference of opinion.
Of course im not moving beyond that definition because my whole premise was dependent upon that definition AS I SAID IN THE FIRST COMMENT COMPLETE WITH A BIG ‘IF’
I’ll reiterate my initial question: if this is the case, then what did you hope to get out of this discussion? Because as I’ve already said: either people agree with you or they don’t. There’s no wiggle room, here. The best course scenario was people going “I agree” or “I disagree” and then never talking to you ever again.
You’re whole arguement is that it’s wrong of me to not change the definition that I already stated my arguments depend on because then people either agree or won’t.
No, my whole argument is that you came into this thread with that and seemed to be expecting people to agree with you when they had different definitions. But once again, like I said before, if my grandmother had wheels, she would have been a bike. So, once again, what were you expecting to happen? Either people are going to agree with you or not, and if they don’t, then they’re going to tell you why. And they did. And then you got upset when they did. So, once again, what did you expect to happen?
I know and have spoken with plenty of vegans who use that definition
I cannot emphasize how little your personal experience or relationship with “plenty of vegans” matters to a discussion like this. One one very basic level, it’s because your sample size is so astronomically low as to be meaningless. On another because it’s the internet and lying is trivially easy. I could also point to websites that define veganism as something different from your definition, but that would be equally worthless because you wouldn’t care and because you would say your personal knowledge of people with the definition you’re using carries more weight. Which, it doesn’t, but you probably believe that it does.
Or do you really think your definition is the only way someone can be a vegan?
I don’t really care about veganism or how it’s defined. What I care about is how arguments are structured and the mechanisms of language. Language is a descriptive tool and veganism is a complex lifestyle choice whose goals are tied to equally complex ethical values. There’s probably multiple different and equally “valid” ways of practicing veganism, but your argument is founded upon a very specific, very narrow definition of that label. Your discussion with most people here can be summed up as you saying “according to this narrow definition of veganism, this act is not vegan” and multiple people responding with “that isn’t my definition of veganism” and you responding with “yes, but I know a lot of vegans who have that as their definition, therefore it is more legitimate than your definition, and, also therefore, it wouldn’t be vegan” and people responding again with, “I don’t believe you, but, yes, changing the meaning of words will fundamentally alter the outcome of a hypothetical syllogism that relies on specific definitions of those words. What is your point?”
And what is your point? Like, I am serious, when you went into this discussion, what, in your mind, did you want to get out of it? It feels like you just wanted people to blindly agree with your position without providing their own perspectives on the hypothetical.
You even tacitly admited to that saying that within the framework I chose, one can only agree or disagree.
Yes, but that point is that that isn’t productive as far as discussions go. If you frame a hypothetical in narrow conditions around a binary label, such as “vegan” or “not vegan,” such that someone can either agree or disagree with the applicability of that label, there is no point in having that discussion. It’s like if I said, “if I define good food as food I like, then pizza is bad food, because I don’t like pizza.” That’s a completely useless statement. There is no reason to voice it because it leads to nothing.
No one forced anyone to respond to my comments but if I make a point completely within a common framework, the least one could do is not ignore the framework simply because it’s easier to respond that way.
Here we are again with competing foundational premises: you believe the definition of veganism you are applying is valid, common, and, in some ways, universal. The people responding to you think differently and have provided their own perspectives, which you have largely dismissed, in much the same way you feel like yours has been dismissed. It’s a conflict of foundational premises, and the premises are so entrenched and inflexible as to prevent any kind of meaningful discussion. Competing definitions are fairly common in any kind of ideological debate, but they’re also fairly useless and ultimately dissolve into No True Scotsman fallacies. So, once again, you came in here, said something people thought was dumb and incorrect, and then got defensive when they told you as much. So, yeah, you didn’t force anyone to respond, but nobody forced you to post your inane question in the first place, either, did they?
but short of that my anecdotal evidence from the vegans I know is by definition just as good as any anecdotal evidence provided against it, and that’s all thats been provided
Yeah, but that means your anecdotal evidence is as equally worthless, not as equally valuable, because neither has any real value. It’s an ideological label whose edges are innately fuzzy or fluid. It’s not like you’re a radical empiricist debating the geometric definition of a triangle. You’re debating whether or not a very specific act is itself “allowed” by a lifestyle choice. Let it go. If you don’t want to eat Venus fly traps, I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who wanted to force you.
you still won’t even acknowledge theres not simply one type of vegan with only one definition
Remember that part of my previous comment that said you wouldn’t actually understand the argument being made and instead narrowly focus on a very small part of the reply while ignoring every other part of it? Because I remember that. My entire argument is founded on two points: one is that the definitions of veganism are fluid and open to interpretation and that the particular definition of veganism to which you subscribe is so central to your hypothetical as to render the hypothetical largely pointless as a topic of debate.