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Is federation that good?

Am I the only one feeling that the quality of discussion here felt big time after big instances got created and federated (think lemmy.world)?

TLDR : we can block communities we dislike but we have no choice but to interact with instances we dislike. (Also main points in bold in the text)

I have barely any interest in conversations here compare to before and I feel it is due to a lot of very bad takes and nonconstructive comments being the norm now. I can’t help noticing/feeling like the majority of them comes from the same instances.

I was annoyed from the early days (before Lemmy got some traction after the reddit debacle) that I had to block all the ‘meme’ communities and some others. This is a sample from my block list :


<span style="color:#323232;">cryptocurrency
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Funny Videos, Images, Memes, Quotes and more Lemmy [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Political [email protected]>
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]@hexbear.net
</span><span style="color:#323232;">RPGMemes @ttrpg.network
</span><span style="color:#323232;">ADHD [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Microblog [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Star Wars [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
</span><span style="color:#323232;">solarpunk [email protected] 
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">AI Generated [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Lord of the [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">[email protected] [email protected]
</span><span style="color:#323232;">Comics
</span><span style="color:#323232;">People [email protected][email protected]
</span>

This is fine by me as at least I have a way to not bother and not be bothered by those communities I have no interest in. I feel like some conversation that could be interesting and deep get bombed by the sheer amount of terrible interaction from other instances.

There are surely better and worse instances, and depending of our interests we’ll have preferences. Because of the way federation works now I cannot filter out the ‘noise’ and things like “top of week” is… not going well in my opinion. There is no community-blocking equivalent way of blocking votes/post/comment for specific instances.

When I read ‘Hacker News’ it is so refreshing to see such a community with deeper interactions and sourced arguments and points. I feel like I am learning things there. It would be perfect if not America-centric, start-up minded place (also only about tech there). But the moderation there is amazing.

I am starting to give up on the current state of Lemmy now and looking for non-federated places that would have better communities. I haven’t found any yet (not that I’ve searched that much). I feel like there might be a way around all-federated or isolated silo choice here. I guess that would also imply a lot of technical work (thank you very much too all who contributed to Lemmy so far).

originalucifer ,
@originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com avatar

federation is ammmmazing. i cant imagine anyone looking at reddit vs the all the available interfacing for the fediverse and choosing reddit.

Track_Shovel ,
@Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net avatar

Idk if it’s good, but I do know that it’s extremely cool to petition the admins to defederate as soon as someone disagrees with you

vga ,

I thought the level of discourse has increased sharply since lemmy.world got along, and the effect of lemmy.ml’s somewhat extremist stance has lessened. It’s now possible to mostly actually talk here without blocking half of the whole network.

So I would be perfectly ok with dropping lemmy.ml from the rest of the network. But I’m guessing that goes somewhat against the overall philosophy of the whole thing? I don’t suppose the idea of federation was to create even stronger bubbles.

Cowbee , (edited )
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

You’re never going to get rid of Communists on Lemmy, FOSS in general attracts Communists, combined with stable and growing Communist instances. If Lemmy.world wants to go its own way it can, but there’s already a right-wing Lemmy, that’s Reddit.

Lemmy.world probably wouldn’t last in the long run as it appeals exclusively to the median Reddit demographic too ideological to stay on Reddit, yet ill-informed on the mechanics of what made Reddit bad.

masterspace ,

They never said anything about getting rid of communists, they said it’s no longer a communist echo chamber.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

I read their comment too, no need to worry. Anticommunist instances like Lemmy.world and, relevantly Lemmy.ca, still can’t get rid of Communists even by defederating from Communist instances.

My point is more that Lemmy itself is structured along Communist principles, while Reddit remains the right-wing Lemmy. Choosing Lemmy over Reddit is ideological in nature, which means there is going to be a steady influx of Communists and other Leftists, less so Liberals.

masterspace ,

I read their comment too, no need to worry. Anticommunist instances like Lemmy.world and, relevantly Lemmy.ca, still can’t get rid of Communists even by defederating from Communist instances.

Assuming that whole instances are anti-anything is a great way to judge a whole swath of people quickly and look childish, it’s less useful to do anything else.

My point is more that Lemmy itself is structured along Communist principles, while Reddit remains the right-wing Lemmy. Choosing Lemmy over Reddit is ideological in nature, which means there is going to be a steady influx of Communists and other Leftists, less so Liberals.

No, Lemmy is just decentralized in nature, while that’s attractive to fringe left groups like hardcore communists, it’s also attractive to anarchists and fringe right groups like hardcore libertarians.

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

Lemmy is in growing pains. It doesn’t need to surpass Reddit, that’s not what I mean. What I mean is that federation and defederation is like maintaining a garden, if your goal is high quality discussion amongst knowledgeable individuals. It’s like good moderation

Hexbear does a great job with this in my opinion, they are widely federated but are selectively defederated with instances like Lemmy.world (even though Lemmy.world defederated them before they were federated). Discussion on Hexbear is usually much higher quality per conversation (assuming it isn’t a meme post).

It’s a tradeoff if you want broad federation like Lemmy.ml or Lemm.ee.

unknowing8343 ,

Federation has nothing to do with the problem you are talking about. Moderation is. That’s it. You’re picking the wrong enemy. When any platform gets big, more moderation is needed, more stupid comments will appear. Has nothing to do with federation.

Kajika OP ,

I had the idea that moderation is instance based in Lemmy, mods only moderate people on their instance.

Nemo ,

users on their instance, not users from their instance. This account is from midwest.social but currently commenting on… uh, lemmy.world, right?

Cowbee ,
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml avatar

This is Lemmy.ml, not Lemmy.world.

Bitrot ,
@Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Only an instance admin can prevent somebody from logging in to that specific instance. Their activities can be ignored by other instances though.

Normal moderation actions in communities such as deletions and community bans are federated.

southsamurai ,
@southsamurai@sh.itjust.works avatar

Eh, I was a pure lurker before the reddit move.

I can’t really say that the slippery quality of discussion has gone down because discussion would be an exaggeration of things before more people jumped over. There just weren’t enough interactions between people to use as a reliable indication of quality.

Now, any forum I’ve ever been on, even back to ICQ days, and old school bbs stuff, there’s a certain degree of “poop in the peanut butter”. You eat enough peanut butter, and your chances of also eating bug poop go up, with it becoming a certainty eventually. You get enough human beings in the same place, you get assholes. The more people, the more assholes.

You can’t really escape it entirely. Even the best possible moderation has delays, and judgement calls. All you can do is drop the numbers until the amount of poop in the peanut butter is low enough to pretend it isn’t there. The only way to entirely get rid of the bad elements is to host your own forum, and make it invite only, while also not letting it get big enough you can’t moderate it.

But, my impression is that the good discussions are still way higher on lemmy as a whole than anywhere else currently. Mbin counts as part of that, though it isn’t the same thing.

Blocking instances helps. You’re right that some instances have a certain proclivity towards personality types and/or beliefs that go hand-in-hand with bad behavior. And the bigger ones (the one I’m on included) have big enough numbers that even without those proclivities, you end up with good bit of poop with your pb&j. Sadly, even blocking an instance isn’t going to fully prevent running across users in comments here and there.

But overall? Way better than reddit was in the five years or so before spez spazzed. Better than 9gag ever was. At least as convivial as one of the forums I moderated back in the late 90s, where the user base was pretty decent overall by virtue of it being homogenous in several ways.

As pissed as I was that reddit went all the way into stupidity, I’m happier on lemmy now than I was on reddit a decade ago. And I’m happier with the average interactions I see on lemmy than I was with lemmy before last year. And that’s including the truly abysmal run ins I’ve had over the last year here.

maniacalmanicmania ,
@maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone avatar

I can block instances on Voyager. I assume that only blocks them when I’m browsing on Voyager though and I have no idea how it handles votes/posts/comments for any blocked instance.

Best of luck with your endeavours to find a place you want to hang out in.

viking ,
@viking@infosec.pub avatar

Blocking instances works with the OG Lemmy, but they didn’t build the function into the app, you’d have to go through the website (that one time only).

Or can you block all users of a specific instance with Voyager?

maniacalmanicmania ,
@maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone avatar

In Voyager there is a setting to add instances you want to block.

Kajika OP ,

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/b1d67f68-ccd6-4c06-a6ba-07209f5e7aaa.png

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f5b46f34-02ff-494b-ae96-b3b4ea0c7509.png

I must be missing something (I can see the community is not from lemmy.world but the guy is)

Bitrot ,
@Bitrot@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

It only blocks communities from that instance.

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