Does one have to be an iconoclast or revolutionary these days to be validly left? I consider myself to be left of center, and very much in favor of progressive policies.

frauddogg , 29 days ago

Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY

THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.

So… Why are you asking questions about what ‘left’ means if you don’t want answers from the left???

https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/d192ac62-9165-4c22-bc6e-58abb17d1d15.jpeg

nickwitha_k , 29 days ago (edited 29 days ago)

Does one have to be a revolutionary or iconoclast to be “legitimately” Left? (sorry for the paraphrase)

Not just “no” but fuck no. Anyone suggesting otherwise does not have freedom and liberty for all in mind.

However I find myself being disagreed with quite often, mostly for not advocating or cheering violence, “by any means possible” change, or revolutionary tactics. It would seem that I’m not viewed as authentically holding my view unless I advocate extreme, violent, or radical action to accomplish it.

You’re encountering a mix of naive people, extremists, sock puppets, and the like there. I’m curious as to which contexts you see it in the most. Context is really important. Due example anyone supporting capitalism would be seen adversarily by an M-L communist and a lot of anarchists too.

Those seem like two different things to me.

Pick your battles. If you do not believe in violent revolution to overthrow capitalism but want an M-L to accept you, you’re going to have a bad time. I’d recommend trying to reduce seeking external validation and accept that those with wildly different world views might not see eye-to-eye with you on things, even if you’re both on the same side of center. You’ll be much happier.

Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY

THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.

I think you may have a few misconceptions there :). I’m an anarchist and believe that the data shows resoundingly that capitalism and the hierarchical structures that it requires are the root cause of much of human suffering as well as pushing the Earth towards becoming uninhabitable to our species.

Do I want to overthrow society? Fuck no. The amount of suffering and death that that would cause is literally beyond human capacity to comprehend. How many would starve or die of preventable disease? The ends do not justify the means.

Do I want capitalism to continue to be the dominant economic system? Absolutely not. It fails to address inequity or the long-term survival of our species. It’s better than feudalism, yes, but, not by enough and out must evolve to meet the species needs, despite the wishes of billionaires.

I treat anarchism as a long project. I know I’ll never see it in my life and that’s ok as long as I put future generations in a place to carry on the baton. Things have been declining, in many ways, due to the Me Generation refusing to relinquish control. I hope that enough of my cohort are willing to put in the effort to fix some of the damage once they’re finally gone (those still holding on to power at this point won’t willingly hand it off to us until they have no choice).

Cowbee , 29 days ago

How are you suggesting Anarchism be implemented? By voting for it? Even if you could, you would have had to build up the power required to sieze the state regardless, Capitalists aren’t going to willingly end Capitalism.

I don’t see how Anarchism is possible without revolution.

AccountMaker , 29 days ago

One idea I really like is slowly circumventing the need for big corporations by having services provided locally. People in a given community developing skills and aiding each other to make themselves as self-sufficient as possible. Then groups of these communities can interact and potentially provide things the other one lacks.

Or something like medieval guilds where people from each profession act together to practice their craft where needed, modified unions or something like that.

Essentially people willingly cooperating to be able to stand up to the capitalists. They have power because we depend on them, both their services and on money which they hoard. Through cooperation and mutual aid, their power can be significantly reduced, without a high risk of violence erupting.

Is this too optimistic and naive? Maybe, but I’m of the opinion that we’d in any case benefit if we started moving in that direction.

Cowbee , 29 days ago

One idea I really like is slowly circumventing the need for big corporations by having services provided locally. People in a given community developing skills and aiding each other to make themselves as self-sufficient as possible. Then groups of these communities can interact and potentially provide things the other one lacks.

On board with this being consistent so far, building up parallel structures and dual-power is a core aspect of Revolutionary Leftist Theory. I do expect Capitalists to crack down on this though, to protect their interests. This happened to Fred Hampton of the Black Panther Party.

Or something like medieval guilds where people from each profession act together to practice their craft where needed, modified unions or something like that.

Not really in line with this, seems like an odd direction, unless you’re describing Worker Councils. I still expect Capitalists to stomp this out unless Leftists fight back.

Essentially people willingly cooperating to be able to stand up to the capitalists. They have power because we depend on them, both their services and on money which they hoard. Through cooperation and mutual aid, their power can be significantly reduced, without a high risk of violence erupting.

So this is just Revolutionary theory, but with the added “no violence though” bit. The problem is that this situation would result in violence, and historically has, for all comparable events.

Is this too optimistic and naive? Maybe, but I’m of the opinion that we’d in any case benefit if we started moving in that direction.

We would benefit, you’re describing some form of Revolutionary Theory with the hope that Capitalists lay down and accept their crumbling influence.

AccountMaker , 29 days ago

I should clarify what I meant by “no violence”. I meant that, in the ideal scenario, communities build themselves up so that capitalists become less and less relevant, without exacting violence upon them. Of course, in the event that these communities get attacked by those same capitalists, defence is very reasonable.

The thing is when you tell people that we need a revolution, most picture storming various places, seizing assets and beating up some people in the process, which I think makes a lot of them distance themselves. Presenting a program which focuses on a peaceful development of society is I think much easier to get on board with.

There’s a low to zero chance that any transition away from capitalism will be peaceful and without resistance, but I think it would be better to tell people that the we want to work towards creating a normal life, and we will encounter violent resistence along the way, than to focus on revolutions and overthrowing the ruling class. The end goal is pretty much the same, and the process might inevitably involve the same things, but the former is I think more palatable to most.

Cowbee , 29 days ago

I should clarify what I meant by “no violence”. I meant that, in the ideal scenario, communities build themselves up so that capitalists become less and less relevant, without exacting violence upon them. Of course, in the event that these communities get attacked by those same capitalists, defence is very reasonable.

This is standard Revolutionary Theory, for the most part.

The thing is when you tell people that we need a revolution, most picture storming various places, seizing assets and beating up some people in the process, which I think makes a lot of them distance themselves. Presenting a program which focuses on a peaceful development of society is I think much easier to get on board with.

The thing is, that’s not what Revolutionary Theory entails. Revolution is a consequence, not an action. Building up parallel structures and dual power allows Leftists to help steer the Revolution when it happens.

There’s a low to zero chance that any transition away from capitalism will be peaceful and without resistance, but I think it would be better to tell people that the we want to work towards creating a normal life, and we will encounter violent resistence along the way, than to focus on revolutions and overthrowing the ruling class. The end goal is pretty much the same, and the process might inevitably involve the same things, but the former is I think more palatable to most.

The difference here is that you’ve engaged in sectarianism and threw Revolutionary Leftists under the bus, only to espouse much of the same rhetoric. I do believe that you would be better off coalition-building with other Leftists and trying to better explain Revolutionary Theory to those not yet familiar, as the biggest tool of Leftists is organizing.

save_the_humans , 28 days ago (edited 28 days ago)

You’ve basically just described the cooperative movement. Food, worker, housing, producer co-ops. We need people to start co-ops and for policy to help nurture its growth.

How do we make that happen though? I don’t really know. I like to imagine we need one person to run for president with this as their platform on the democratic ticket just to get the message across. Similar to how Andrew Yang brought universal basic income into the conversation.

Some kind of uniting catalyst for a non violent transition away from capitalism that people can agree with and isn’t just ‘socialism’. Cooperative enterprises though are a stateless form of socialism, so no central planning or big government to tell us what to do. Seems like something that could potentially unite both the left and right if done right.

nickwitha_k , 29 days ago

How are you suggesting Anarchism be implemented? By voting for it?

No. Voting is a tool in the societal “first aid kit”. It’s used to try to limit the harm that the Right would joyously continue to cause and staunch the bleeding. There are many other tools in the toolbox that must be used. Protest, direct action, community building, etc.

Non-corporate cultural, civil, and agricultural infrastructure (monopolization is particularly heavy in US agriculture, thanks to Bork and his defanging of anti-trust enforcement) needs to be developed in order to support the population during transition. This requires cultivating strong, cooperative community renderIt doesn’t feel as great as thinking that we could be there in a day or a week or a year but, a lasting, stable society free of the chains of unjust hierarchy requires a sound foundation.

Even if you could, you would have had to build up the power required to sieze the state regardless, Capitalists aren’t going to willingly end Capitalism.

Absolutely. There’s no way that the power addicts at the top are going to let go willingly. But, without popular support or the ability to provide for societal needs, any revolution is likely to result in installation of a despot and massive amounts of preventable starvation, illness, and death, not to mention societal trauma.

Capitalism has been around for a long time. Moving on to the next thing is going to take time too. Especially, when taking into account the massive efforts sunk into resisting this change by Capital, which have set us back significantly.

I don’t see how Anarchism is possible without revolution.

Revolutionaries NEED practitioners of non-violence, non-revolutionary workers, and other non-combatants as much as the opposite is true. Without the “heart” of the latter, “revolution” is nothing but a self-serving exercise in forcing one’s ideology on the populace, nearly always resulting in atrocities and despotism. When the revolution is over, what then? Without accounting for societal needs, there’s danger of power vacuums drawing worse actors. For successful positive societal change, you need builders.

And non-violence alone is not likely sufficient as it is too easily ignored and suppressed, unless it is clear and plausible that violence is the alternative. Just look at Dr. King and Malcom X.

So, to answer your primary question of “how do I suggest achieving Anarchism”, through multiple avenues. For some, revolution might be their contribution, for others, like myself, it’s education and cultivating community of shared values such as kindness, inclusion, respect, and mutual aid. Getting to a fair and just society will take all kinds.

Cowbee , 28 days ago

So essentially, you’re a Revolutionary Leftist just like the rest of us, but with more finger-wagging, rather than understanding that Revolutionary theory doesn’t mean “pick up a rock and go sicko mode.”

nickwitha_k , 28 days ago

I absolutely do understand that. However, I frequently encounter those who are less cognizant of it (or are just wreckers) that chomp at the bit for violence and make room for no other ways. I’m absolutely a Revolutionary Leftist with allegiance to humanity, not economic or political system, but, context matters and OP was not speaking with the same nomenclature.

Melatonin OP , 29 days ago

Amazing answer from an Anarchist! Thank you for being able to talk without hyperbole. I feel like I would learn a lot from you and I would certainly break bread with you.

Sorry about my immature outburst in the edit, but I felt like I was fighting a hydra. So much noise I wasn’t getting hearing anything.

orcrist , 29 days ago

Unsurprisingly, people define words in many different ways. What’s your definition? We can’t tell you how you should be categorized until you tell us what you think the words mean.

And I don’t mean that in a snarky way. For example, some people use the words liberal and leftist synonymously. Many other people don’t. And there are many other similar examples involving any kind of political terminology. It really does come down to a question of definitions, which is why it’s so easy to have miscommunication on political issues, on top of the fact that people have varying opinions on the issues themselves.

lorty , 29 days ago

Eventually you’ll realise that voting for the least bad option just makes things worse and never better, and you’ll have to deal with the fact that you can get what you want through the system.

Randomgal , 29 days ago

If you’re talking about Lemmy specifically, remember this is a left-wing echo chamber, so of course you’ll be shunned if you’re not willing to man the guillotine.

In the real world people understand that change is progressive and requires compromise to avoid the violence of the extremes. I’d suggest touch some grass and put some distance between you and keyboard-leftists that speak like they are playing a video game.

Volunteer in your community, it’s a great way to meet people who are more than Internet posers.

Cowbee , 29 days ago

In the real world people understand that change is progressive and requires compromise to avoid the violence of the extremes. I’d suggest touch some grass and put some distance between you and keyboard-leftists that speak like they are playing a video game.

Genuinely, when has major change happened without violence, or the threat of violence? Slavery, the Civil Rights Movement, various anti-fascist and anti-monarchist revolutions, all have happened with either violence or resulted in concessions to avoid violence.

Arkhive , 28 days ago

“In the real world” when applied to the discussion of online vs AFK spaces is a super slippery slope. Legacy Russell discusses this at length in their manifesto Glitch Feminism.

The reasoning here being that language like that is used to discredit and invalidate the usefulness of digital spaces. Tons of minorities rely on digital community to explore senses of self, identity, and political leanings. That is NOT to say Lemmy ISN’T a leftist echo chamber, but it should point out the problem with using its digital nature to discredit anything that is said here. Anonymity is a fantastic tool for world making, particularly black and queer futurism.

Getting more into my own opinion, I agree with the other commenter under your post saying rarely in history have the most pivotal changes come purely from “reform”. Our biggest leaps forward have largely been started my social/political dissidence, which was then responded to with policy changes. Political violence is perpetrated on minorities every day. Using the online nature of this discussion to discredit people that are pointing out that violence and saying pushback is necessary is just pushing many already ostracized individuals out of some of the only spaces they can be safe while discussing such sensitive issues. These spaces allow people to explore futures that offer them even a small sense of upward mobility and stability, even if that means a period of violence before they get there.

I am in fact willing to die for the futures I am capable of imagining. If the futures you imagine are based on slow, inter-generational change via the current political system that is allowed, and incredibly selfless of you. My only pushback would be to look at your own quality of living and ask how many people have access to similar comfort and stability and try to understand why some people might feel the political system has failed, and will continue to fail, them. Personally I’d like to experience at least a small piece of the futures I’ve imagined within my lifetime, and I have little to no faith in this country’s ability to “reform” it’s way into those futures.

shottymcb , 28 days ago

Dying won’t do you much good at getting the future you want. There’s a long history of violent anarchists and socialists that killed or died for their beliefs, and none of that violence led to progress.

I think maybe your ego is a little beyond realistic. My life or yours are will make barely more than an infinitesimal difference in the world. But enough slightly above infinitesimal add up. Maybe be the person that made the world very very slightly better rather than the one that died for nothing?

Reform has made huge differences in our lives, from the magna carta to union activity to the civil rights struggle. Things are immensely better than they were in the 1500s, and it was all incremental.

Arkhive , 28 days ago

Honestly you’re right. At least as far as calling out some of the more wild or poorly worded parts of what I said. That being said I never said reform and incremental change hasn’t helped, only that plenty of incredibly important societal changes have come ONLY after extreme conflict. Of course decisions have been made entirely peacefully, but saying humanities progress hasn’t been violent is a gross mischaracterization of our collective history.

As far as dying goes lol. I said willing, not wanting to. I say that because I realize my willingness to participate in the large scale restructuring, that many believe is necessary, could put me at risk. Hell even just existing as a trans person puts me at a lot of risk let alone being politically active. Between my hobbies and living in a car centric society, I have had enough brushes with death to truly not fear it, and that has honestly changed the types of futures I can imagine. Those futures are more radical, and involve more personal risk, but also have even more wonderful outcomes than any involving the slow burn legislation solutions. The current system IS bad for the vast majority of people, on both sides of the isle. If someone feels otherwise they are in an incredibly lucky position.

Tons of the deaths you mentioned in your first lines did lead to change, and I don’t think I need to paste a list of political figures, throughout our history, even just within the last century, that died for a cause that went on to be successful, even leading to precisely the legislation and incremental change you speak of. Hell even just the killing of average citizens can and has sparked massive moments of political dissent and subsequent change, see the BLM movement as an example.

I’m also by no means using this as an excuse to not participate in the political system. My primary point is instead that I want to also take an active part in making meaningful change within my lifetime, ideally even sooner as I would like some time to enjoy said change before becoming old and decrepit. The political system gives myself, and plenty of other people, no hope in seeing that drastic change in our lifetimes.

Additionally, history is written by the winners. Many of the people that died along the way often get conveniently left out in order to make the history the winners write look even better. There is absolutely history of violence in the struggles unions face. There is absolutely history of violence in the civil rights movement. There is absolutely history of violence in the “charter of English liberties granted by King John on…”

In each of these cases the “reform” you mention has taken serious struggle and sacrifice to get people to actually begin to realize something needs to change. From the incredible violence of colonialism the Magna Carta represents, to the blatant police brutality of the civil rights movement, to the numerous violent crackdowns of union workers, all of the “incremental change” you reference, to me, seems so obviously too little too late. If we wanted to avoid violence tell that to the oppressors, not the people defending their existence. In fact each of the things you reference as being moments of reform almost directly follow huge moments of often bloody conflict. That’s like holding up the Treaty of Versailles and saying “look at how peacefully we got this written and signed” while hastily sweeping the carnage leading up to it under the rug.

The adding up of infinitesimal differences you reference rings just as true for direct action as it does for voting. Another person out at a protest is another pair of handcuffs the police need to buy, is another single use taser they need to fire, and in some cases is another magazine of ammunition they need to empty, all to support the fragile egos of the already wealthy and powerful.

To be clear, I would love nothing more than for the cycle of violence to be broken, but as long as the people in power see those that are different from them as a threat and a source of cheap of not free labor, there will be violence. People out on the street, and open discussions about political violence, are a natural response to oppression. It’s the body’s, the people’s, immune system responding to the oppressive force of an illness in the form of fascism, capitalism, and colonialism.

BallsandBayonets , 29 days ago

You can be validly left without wanting revolution, as long as you’re ok with progress happening over the course of centuries (in a world that has about 25 years left before the majority of us are dead from man-made climate change).

intensely_human , 28 days ago

Some leftists aren’t so interested in progress, as in making sure everyone is okay.

Jayjader , 28 days ago

making sure everyone is okay.

Given the current state of the world, that would be progress.

intensely_human , 28 days ago

I agree. What I should have said is that some leftists aren’t seeking progress per se, but rather to ensure everyone is okay, per se.

One variable can be a leading indicator of another, but it’s still a different thing to be optimizing for one or the other.

mayo_cider , 29 days ago

It’s not about left or right, it’s about socialism or liberalism

If calling yourself a leftist makes you feel better, feel free to do so, but don’t get angry when people call out your actual position

CrabAndBroom , 29 days ago

Someone on here told me earlier I wasn’t left enough when I posted a Karl Marx quote lol

Melatonin OP , 29 days ago

Oof. That’s a tough audience.

comfy , 28 days ago

@Melatonin highlights the problem with using relative terms like ‘left’ and ‘center’ and ‘far’. They’re subjective, and in my opinion, shouldn’t be used.

I don’t know what country or society you’re in. “Left” can often mean anything from centrist liberalism (Democrat Party) to nothing less than socialism (socialists often consider liberalism to be in the center). Then you get literal Fascists (as in, Mussolini and Mosley types, unlike Nazi fascists) who throw a stone in the whole thing: their heritage comes from both the traditional left (namely syndicalism) and the right (ultranationalism), and don’t neatly fit into progressive or regressive (BUF notably gained many women supporters for their pro-suffrage policies, progressive at the time).

One can avoid arguments like in the OP just by learning the proper terms for political views and ideologies. Are you a progressive liberalist? Are you a social democrat? Are you a democratic socialist? (yes unfortunately those two get confusing)

For more information about the political compass and examples of why it’s not a useful tool, I recommend this video.

Melatonin OP , 28 days ago

Thanks, very good reply.

Duke_Nukem_1990 , 28 days ago

What positions do you hold that make you consider yourself left of center?

Melatonin OP , 28 days ago

Excellent question, but I’ll think about it on my own. I’ve had enough go rounds in this post