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samokosik ,
@samokosik@lemmynsfw.com avatar

No, he is not supporting war crimes. I disagree with many of his opinions, but I am on his side now.

Franzia ,

Common Hasan W. Just don’t ask him about China/Taiwan or socialism vs. capitalism. Ask instead what he’s wearing and driving. I jest, but Hasan is proof that being correct on leftist issues can pay well, and that’s a good sign.

moosetwin ,
@moosetwin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Ben Shapiro

are you surprised

rekabis ,

This seems to be an “ESH” (everyone sucks here) situation. Yes, Hamas sucks more. But Israel isn’t far behind.

RupeThereItIs ,

If you’re keeping score isreal has for sure put more points on the board.

But Hamas does suck as much as the Israeli government, yes.

The biggest victims here? The Palestinians.

rekabis ,

The biggest victims here? The Palestinians.

We can agree on that, at least.

Shame they don’t have the ability to eradicate Hamas from their midst. But then there comes the issue of Israeli aggression and violent land appropriation.

As I pointed out, ESH.

Eccitaze ,
@Eccitaze@yiffit.net avatar

The reason I know I’d fail as a politician is because the instant I get asked anything about Israel / Palestine, I’d either run away screaming or I’d throw my hands up and say “I’m not touching this with a ten foot pole, they both suck and everyone except the civilians caught in the crossfire deserve whatever they get.”

This whole conflict isn’t black and white morality, or even black and gray morality. It barely qualifies as black and slightly-less-black-if-you-squint morality. It’s like Luke trying to blow up the Death Star, if the Death Star was populated mostly with families, children, and puppies, and Luke ate a baby while he was rescuing the princess.

chicken ,

I’d either run away screaming or I’d throw my hands up and say “I’m not touching this with a ten foot pole, they both suck and everyone except the civilians caught in the crossfire deserve whatever they get.”

To me it seems like the obvious answer, from the perspective of a country that provides significant financial and military support to Israel, is to withdraw that support conditional on Israel giving a defined minimum amount of concern to not committing war crimes and human rights abuses. Things genuinely necessary for defense, fine, the rest, we should not be complicit in.

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA ,
@HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

That seems like an obvious answer, but we use Israel to further our foreign policy goals in the middle east and Israel uses our money. The nation’s continued existence, not a given if foreign aid gets yanked, gives us a location from which to stage operations. That gives them significant bargaining power.

chicken ,

Just because the United States is always super Machiavellian about its foreign policy doesn’t make it ok to bargain with the lives of innocent people. If we acknowledge that what Israel is doing is wrong, and that we are enabling it, the right thing to do would simply be to stop enabling it. Otherwise, we are partly responsible for it.

taladar ,

Most of that money also goes right back to US weapons manufacturers too so it is just one form of indirect aid for the US industry.

sailingbythelee ,

I think this whole “who is worse” paradigm is a dead-end trap. The binary right/wrong paradigm is also useless.

The reality is that you have two incompatible populations stuck on the same chunk of land, and they are not sufficiently motivated to compromise on the key issues. That’s why this conflict has been an unresolvable stalemate for decades now. Sad to say, but all-out war is probably the only thing that can break the stalemate at this point.

bufalo1973 ,
@bufalo1973@lemmy.ml avatar

Imagine having on the same place 2 presidents. 1 is Trump and the other is, let’s say, the one from Iran. Do you really think they would put the well being off the people before their own agenda? Israel has a bloody extremist leader and Hamas is another bloody extremist group. Israel’s civilian and Palestine’s civilian are just “collateral damage”.

sailingbythelee ,

I don’t disagree. Politicians are often selfish narcissists, especially conservative politicians. And some people just want to see the world burn. Regular people always get the shaft. Nothing new there. At the same time, we can look at both of these radical governments as alternately fueling, and being fueled by, 75 years of unresolved conflict over the same land. Peace terms have been proposed and rejected. Add in external players that ensure they both have weapons and ideological support, and war is inevitable until one side is exhausted and gives in on the key issues in dispute.

kiku123 ,

I thought Jared Kushner solved this during Trump’s presidency. Are you saying that they lied?

Jokes aside I agree. Both sides claim they want a 2 state solution, but that’s only because it’s politically convenient to say. Perhaps the Palastinians would settle for it now, since Israel has more power, but Israel really has no incentive not to just keep encroaching even more into Palestine until it’s all Israel.

RampageDon ,

I don’t understand why we see Ben Shapiro posts all the time. Why do we care what he thinks. He’s irrelevant and here to make people rage. Stop engaging in his content and or sharing it with others. Let him scream into the void.

4am ,

Unfortunately he’s not irrelevant, there’s motherfuckers out there who hang on his every word and then spread it like wildfire through social media. “Normies” who only have passing knowledge of the situation eat that shit up and dumbass Ben suddenly has huge power to control the narrative.

GeoGio7 , (edited )

Wtf is up with people picking sides over this??? Can’t we just agree that both sides are absolutely fucking awful and the ones who are gonna suffer are all the innocent people who are just trying to live their lives?

Pratai ,

100% THIS. I can’t understand and haven’t from the beginning of this disaster or human embarrassment- why people are choosing sides.

They’re both complete shit.

Gadg8eer ,
@Gadg8eer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Yeah, ffs, if you want to fight a war, leave both side’s kids out of it.

14 and younger is too early for anyone to die, I swear if that asshole Trump really is the Antichrist (look it up, I’m no Christian but the “Kek and Medjet” meme energy is strong with that theory) and the bible was right (and if so, that these really are the end times), I hope every last person who has willingly killed a child or ordered someone to kill children goes to the 10th circle of hell or whatever passes for it, no matter what god or concept they believe in. Especially Trump (see the Mexican immigrant kids who his illegal “task force” of bigots basically kidnapped and let starve) and Putin, but that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Justice needs to be served for every child, whether they were enslaved on cocoa farms, working in slaughterhouses in the state that changed child labor laws, sent to juvenile detention for crimes they didn’t commit because the judge was getting kick-backs from a corporate prison, or killed in school shootings.

People say we hate child abuse. I strongly suspect what people really hate is the feeling of disgust that enter their heads if they hear “sex” and “kids” in the same sentence, which would be understandable if it was genuine concern (nobody, especially kids, should be subject to sex against their will, and yes, kids cannot consent) but it’s not. If it was, guns would be regulated, school bus routes would be required to never cross railroad tracks, and any leader - corporate or government - responsible for the intentional or negligent death of a child due to actions that used political/managerial authority would be executed.

I am so done with reality. Wake me up on November 12, if we’re still around by then.

havokdj ,

Brother I really hate to say it, but nobody is going anywhere when they die.

Also, what is on the 12th?

Gadg8eer , (edited )
@Gadg8eer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Nothing, but it’s three days after the 7th Anniversary of Trump’s election, hence the anti-Christ thing. I doubt Jesus will rise, but three days is long enough to safely say November 9th meant nothing.

Also, no hard feelings on the “no one’s going anywhere when they die”. I have a slight, possibly deluded hope that the afterlife is a dream you never wake up from, but despite that I’m no Q-Anon style idiot and I don’t have a reason to think anything is special about 2023/11/09, especially if nothing happens.

I’m just saying, this thing in Gaza has awfully strange timing. If things are as deterministic as scientific evidence generally points towards, I would think December would be a more apt time for tempers to flare in that region due to food prices and religious holidays.

But all that said, even if the world is going to end, just as you said it doesn’t mean there’s an afterlife. I was instead implying the more likely bad scenario; Wake me up in three (or five? I’m not oblivious to unfortunate implications) days unless we’re all dead then.

As for Trump, I don’t care if it was just mysticism, the title of the Anti-Christ is also symbolic; The kind of awful person who looks appealing to idiots that is willing to do anything including killing children by starvation to feel like they “won” and never, ever take any blame are exactly the kind of person that even (the historical, I did say this is about symbolism and not religion) Yeshua of Nazareth would likely have been strongly against.

In other words, the Antichrist is anyone who leads sheeple to the slaughter and eats their corpses (figuratively speaking) instead of guiding people to be saved from roasting in their own wool during the summer by shearing off the excess (metaphorically, but yes, PETA lied to you about sheep and wool). Regardless of what a person like that leads people away from (humility, patience, rationality, morality, things that were or are commonly associated with organized religion, even if rationality is gone from modern churchgoers), it’s the promise of “be superior to people you hate like me!” that makes this so insidious.

I might be vengeful but it’s personal, never bigoted or generalist. I don’t want Israel’s adult population dead. At all. Nor is it ideal. Nor should the Hamas suffer no consequences either. And the kids on both sides should be spared, they didn’t start this. I feel that, even if it will never happen, an example has to be made and should be made of hypocrisy; you can’t be a nation of Holocaust refugees if you yourselves are trying to exterminate the children of an entire group. Is it right? Hell no, I should be killed for suggesting it. Is it justice? No. Will it send a message that killing kids is NEVER acceptable by ANYONE? That’s the intent. I don’t know if it would work but I’m angry enough that I want to see it happen, and my only hope is if it does, it’s quick and painless, for the sake of the adults who did no wrong.

Don’t side with me on this. To say anything else in ending this off would make me no better that Trump, Putin, Stalin and Hitler. It’s not right to stir up hate, I just hope justice will be served or that the world ends within 72 hours.

havokdj ,

I doubt the world will end in 3 days, but I enjoyed reading what you wrote and agree on pretty much most of what you said, scarily enough we actually write very similarly and hold quite a few of the same beliefs.

IchNichtenLichten ,
@IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world avatar

Scum like Shapiro already had an agenda to push. For him this isn’t a tragedy, it’s an opportunity.

Rolder ,

It’s a shit situation all around, there are no winners and no good guys in this fight.

agressivelyPassive ,

Because that would mean ambiguity and people don’t like that. They want simple stories. Good guy here, bad guy there.

TragicNotCute ,
@TragicNotCute@lemmy.world avatar

I think the issue is that it IS both sides doing terrible stuff, but this is not a symmetrical war.

www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Wrench ,

Asymmetrical, and Isreal has been doing their damndest to make it inevitable.

gmtom ,

We can do both. I think neither side has had the “moral high ground” from the very beginning of this conflict. For well over 100 years it’s been both groups using the atrocity the other group has committed against them to justify their own atrocities in return.

But at the same time when you get to the very core of the issue it’s palestine and the Arab population that were existing there first, and had the land forcibly colonised by the west despite the protests for the Arab league. Then had their minority and very recently migrated population steal their land to unilaterally declare independence.

Both sides are going about this the wrong way, but only one is also fighting for the wrong reasons.

samokosik ,
@samokosik@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Both of them have done war crimes. Now does the fact that the other side does war crimes allow you to do war crimes, as well?

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

It makes me feel gross to agree with Ben Shapiro.

magic_lobster_party ,

He’s right, but he’s not describing Israel.

roofuskit ,
@roofuskit@kbin.social avatar

Exactly, we all can tell the difference. But Israel's soldiers are not known for avoiding civilian casualties.

Gadg8eer ,
@Gadg8eer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

No, but Israeli soldiers are known for mostly being deployed against civilians when someone thinks massacres are somehow okay.

I’m not on Israel’s side on this one, but fuck the Hamas too.

roofuskit ,
@roofuskit@kbin.social avatar

That's exactly where any sensible person would be. But torturing all of Palestine is not the solution to Hamas. If anything the occupation has only strengthened Hamas by bolstering recruitment.

Cutting off water, power, and food is just going to turn more Palestinians to Hamas.

Gadg8eer ,
@Gadg8eer@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

That’s definitely half my point, yes. You can’t just shut off water to children like that’s somehow okay, I’m pissed at Israel too. The kids in Palestine didn’t kill the kids in that village, this is why even though I’m a very vengeful person, spite and “collateral damage” is not acceptable from anyone, myself included.

Deftdrummer ,

Oh so it’s a war crime when Israel sends rockets, but like he said the very obvious murders of entire civilian families and beheading the women is totally on the same level morally and principally.

Terrorist sympathizer.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@kbin.social avatar

They are both war crimes that result in dead babies.

Deftdrummer ,

I can agree with that. To a certain extent there are always civilian casualties during wartime. Not condoning it, but it is a fact of war even in the “smart” age.

A ground invasion seems to be the only fairly retaliatory measure.

Zorque ,

No retaliatory measure is fair, because it's focusing on retribution instead of reconciliation. The attack on the dance party was retaliatory, too.

Retaliation only leads to escalation, and lots of death.

Deftdrummer ,

Tell me you don’t understand a thousand year war without telling me.

givesomefucks ,

The difference is the last time Gaza got to vote was 17 years ago…

The vast majority of the residents of Gaza have never had the opportunity to vote, so blaming them for Hamas makes zero fucking sense.

roofuskit ,
@roofuskit@kbin.social avatar

It's quite the leap to equate condemning the terrorist actions of Israel to condoning the terrorist actions of Hamas.

4am ,

No, didn’t you get the talking points? If you sympathize with Palestinians at all then you obviously FULLY SUPPORT Hamas! There’s no room for humanity here.

Deftdrummer ,

Sure fucking had me fooled you retards.

4am ,

It’s a war crime when Hamas kills civilians, but it’s also a war crime when Israel cuts off food, water, and electricity (and also bombs!) civilians.

Not sure what the fuck is hard to understand about that, unless your only thought is “Hurr me no like communist commentator”

Deftdrummer ,

No, it’s not.

Anonymousllama ,

The tone has been set already with this thread, Israel = bad. Doesn’t matter how many families these Hamas cunts kidnap and behead apparently

RGB3x3 ,

It can be both. Hamas can be awful at the same time Israel is awful.

Nobody is justifying the atrocities committed by one side when pointing out the atrocities committed by the other.

The bloodshed needs to end either way.

Sprite ,
@Sprite@lemmy.ml avatar

I never got into Hasan, but damn, glad to see him putting fascists into their place.

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