Poverty hardly justifies crime. It is a cause not a justification. They are still poachers doing illegal hunting for protected animal on protected land. Also poaching is rather lucrative, even if the government raises income 200% poaching will still stand out.
Poverty does justify crimes. When you need to eat, killing a rhino not so bad.
I hate this mentality where poverty crimes are evil but any rich guy destroying the lives of millions of people through financial schemes or to make a better profit are considered almost like good guys. This is completely fucked up.
So if they are poor and eradicating a species off the face of the planet, then they should get a pass? They have the equipment and skills to hunt non-endangered animals which would provide food for themselves and their family. Excess meat could likely be traded or sold. Poaching is not a crime of necessity.
My point is that the forest laws and forest departments in India are set up to criminalise tribals whatever they do. Most of the rules date to the British era, when the government wanted to protect game animals from the tribals and farmers. So when tribals, who have been hunting boar and other common animals for thousands of years, are suddenly told that hunting for food is a crime, they have no option but to break the rules. Now they have a choice - keep hunting boar and deer every week and risk arrest each time, or kill a rhino and get enough money to last a few years. If we could relax the laws on hunting common species, I expect to see rhino poaching go down automatically. Some Indian states have more liberal hunting laws (for tribals) than others, and in those places you do see reductions in human-animal conflict.
If you don’t want to take my word for this, or would like to read more, I would suggest the last two sections of An Ecological History of India by Prof. Madhav Gadgil and Ram Guha.
I am happy to take your word for most of it, but it does not change my view. I am completely in favor of identifying and taking steps to remediate the underlining cause of all forms of crime rather than simply punishing violators. That being said, the hubris that an individual, or group of individuals supercedes the survival of an entire species is repugnant to me. I have no sympathy for anybody that actively contributes to the the extinction of another species (except mosquitos).
The one point of your argument that I do question is the “kill a rhino and get enough money to last a few years” claim. While I have not looked into the details in India, as I understand it, poachers in Africa can make roughly the equivalent of an average 1 month salary for killing 1 rhino. If, in India, they make enough money to last a few years than either poachers are almost exclusively first timers, which seems highly unlikely to me, or they are doing it for greed rather than survival, which would negate your argument of the restrictive hunting laws.
You are using 2 different analogies that contradict each other. The poachers are cultivating a product, similar to poppy and coca plants, not the street dealers, and the wealthy are the buyers / “users”.
There is a broad spectrum of crimes, from stealing an apple to mass murder other people. When you decide to steal food from the supermarket to feed your family it is justified. Hunting… I don’t know… deer or hogs is justified so they can feed their family. But picking a very lucrative business and say you are doing it coz of poverty is kinda fucked. Just for clarity: I’m not agreeing with gunning these people down.
yeah no if I can feed my starving family by killing some animal I would take that in a heartbeat. In contrast, if I can work in a factory and make enough to live decently I’m not going into the woods to try and kill something that can kill me back and risking getting into trouble with the law. Have fun in perfect actor land where you live though.
They can choose to hunt deer or I don’t know monkey to feed their family or even steal food. All justified. Poaching is extremely lucrative. Its like saying I’m robbing my sixth bank because I’m poor. They are not eating the rhino. I’m not OK with gunning these people but it is a shit act even if you are poor
Like yeah it’s a bad thing to do, but I can see why someone might do it once to try and set their family up. Yes they should be stopped and punished, but should we personally hold them in contempt? There’s definitely better off people involved with it, fuck them, and fuck the shit heads who are making the market.
Nah fuck humans. The worst animals of them all. I wont advocate violence but I wont shed a tear over a dead poacher nor rich horn buyers. Humans can just make more humans, with ease. Rhinos aint never called me bad names. Im im the Rhinos corner.
Do you really think the poachers surrounded by wild animals that can kill them and ‘animal loving’ deaths squads are living lavishly and eating lobster and steak dinners?
This is all relative. Their paychecks are nothing compared to what people have in the west, they are not eating lobster. Its like you get 1 usd a day for manual labor or 100 usd for a single rhino shot. So the difference is multiple fold. They know what are they getting into. It’s like someone asks you to sell coke. You know you will get easy money and you know the risks as well.
Honestly, this is the biggest thing that sets off my 👁 senses whenever some version of this post goes around. It squicks me out in the same way as the “Somali pirates OWNED” genre of content that was popular a while back. Stuff that encourages and socially conditions us us to cheer the killing of people who’s have been brought to this point by hostile economic conditions.
I mean, pirates aren’t just smashing and grabbing diamonds out the store. They’re holding actual workers hostage while the executives are on some yacht, so I don’t really care one way or another about them. But the whole “killing poachers” shit is greenwashing nonsense that not only allow vigilante murders, but also victimize random people who have nothing to do with poaching because when you put out a flier recruiting killers, you don’t get the most stable people
My mental adblock is so aggressive I had to search for photos from my city to see if there are any billboards or other sorts of ads. It turns out there are strict regulations in place, and only a few ads are allowed on the streets.
Yeah, it’s so strange that people confuse you with a Kremlin bot when you repeatedly spew the same fucking bullshit talking points as the bots themselves.
Bruh Idk how you got convinced there are so many bots around. Like, sure, if you write off everything that differs from the nato line of thought as bots, then sure, believe what you want. But ti me that’s just absurd. I assume that people I interact with are actual humans, even if their opinions suck ass. But to be so far up your own ass, as to not even acknowledge that people can think other things than you without them being some evil, heinous bot is just fuckin stupid
Meanwhile, there are literally bots that easily replace humans.
Its weird that someones life is only dedicated to be negative about one thing. And especially because Russia and China love to manipulate and do everything to convince people that what they are doing is great, its not unlikely they are bots. Especially with LLM its very easy to create a realistic bot.
Thinking that they are bots is more likely than not because of these facts.
Well, I guess I shall stop my propaganda and just accept that there are literal communities that are hardcore china or russia fans because of the leftism.
There are reasons why Elon Musk doesn’t feel alone while having no gf. /j
You know, I’ve read exactly one comment from you, ReakDuck, and It would be a bit silly if I assumed from this single comment that your entire life to this point has been paranoid whingeing about Russian bots.
“Russia and China love to manipulate and do everything to convince people that what they are doing is great”
If it’s a matter of propaganda, I hope you understand that America is perfectly capable of churning out plenty of absolute pig shit on its own. All large nations with their own media ecosystems employ propaganda as a means of placation, diversion, and general control. Do you worry about the people who agree with you being bots, too? Aren’t your online peers just as likely to be bots? Do you think your particular party or associates don’t employ the same trickery as everyone else? How have they stayed competitive?
Furthermore, what proof would you require to know I’m not a bot? No amount of personal information is beyond manufacturing. I could even send you a social security number and valid identification and you could say I stole it. Do you see where I’m going with this? That rationale of yours is a catch-all justification of complete dismissal. One can protect themselves from any dissenting opinions if they can convince themselves that the other person writing to them is a bot. There’s nothing they can say or do to prove such an assertion wrong short of showing up at your house and shitting on your lawn.
I believe you should challenge the rhetoric being presented to you instead of protecting your own through frivolous dismissals, but I don’t know why I’ve wasted all my time writing this response to a lib bot.
I’m pleasantly surprised by your response, honestly. I understand the temptation to make such arguments, and I’d be lying if I told you that astroturfing and shit like that didn’t happen, but hard leftists like us are small in number in American spaces and that level of bullshittery generally requires some alignment with corporate interests to find the resources. We’re just a bunch of regular people from many different corners who are really passionate about our opinions for a variety of reasons. Hope I wasn’t too aggro with my comment, and hope the rest of your day is a nice one
I’m happy to see you’ve accepted we’re not bots or something, but
that there are literal communities that are hardcore china or russia fans because of the leftism.
Is just a wrong assumption. The point is to never stop the critique. It’s just that we a) accept the nuance in and the reality of the Ukrainian conflict rather than repeat the lines NATO feeds the west through established media (doesn’t mean we’re fans of putin, but since the start of the conflict any nuance has been labeled as ‘Russia apologia’. Russia is a neoliberal, capitalist state and nowhere does this align with my ideals, doesn’t mean ima start referring to Russian people as ‘orcs’). And b) yeah while china absolutely has its shortcomings (like the disparity between rural and urban China), it is doing some pretty cool stuff too, you should read up about it. This all is of course combined with the knowledge that the west is the primary purpetrator of imperialism, death, desease, hunger, poverty and instability in the global south, while not even being able to channel the stolen wealth to its citizens in order to make some billionairs even richer.
I see people less being hardcore and instead just see them here as people with different opinions. (some are hardcore leftist, but on the other hand reddit you see often hardcore american fans or karens)
You don’t know my hate about america, I definetly hate this system and especially as a German guy who just loves free Open Source Software hate the idea that my school forces pupils to use their bad and unprofessional products compared to free open source ones because they are partners and MC wants money hard as fuck.
But whats tempting me is when I hear how gay people were seen as an illness. Many things that I heard just heard about camps where people with wrong religions are put there which aligns to the German Hitlers conzentration camps. Some things are definetly nice and a good approach from China but youtube debunkers show many opposite truths and gaslights. Democracy like EU is trying to and forces everyone to have the same rights for every human, is what is missing in China. I guess each country can decide by themselves if they are left or right, its just about this ground rules that should not be broken because one president wants to become evil.
I absolutely do not agree that people in Europe have equal rights. You just need to look at how migrants or refugees are treated, and that’s just one example. Recent protests in France also didn’t start because they were treated so equally. Hell, the working class is losing rights left right and center as we speak.
I didn’t get “convinced there are so many bots around,” you absolute idiot. My point was only that if and when idiots like you use talking points that are identical to those coming out of Putin’s Kremlin, people can be forgiven for mistaking you for a bot.
What part about this do you not understand? How can I dumb it down enough for you?
When it comes to media attraction, what they call themselves (labels) don’t really matter that much. It’s the praise of strong men, authority, that crosses all mythological media systems. Be it bowing down to a burning bush story, Fox News, or Kremlin.
Cynically mass influencing opinion is immoral. Using automated software to do that is doubly immoral.
The fact that Russians are doing this is not controversial, it is widely documented. Whether they’re doing it here is perhaps questionable, but then again, Lemmy and its APIs are free to use so why wouldn’t they.
Vocaloid is voice synthesizer software. They’ve actually been around for a while, there’s a lot of artists who will sample them for vocals and mix that into original music.
its really wild that the russians are programming transgender communist robots, maybe they need some critical support now, maybe theyll make real catgirls next
Yeah, you can call yourself a leftist all you want, but when 90% of your posts is calling Biden and Zelensky Nazis but you never criticize Putin or Trump, I get certain doubts.
That’s what I thought too, but somehow there is a “600 page report on the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop” on their front page.
Like I said, they call themselves leftists, but everything there is only anti-Biden, anti-NATO and anti-Ukraine. Nothing about republicans pushing for child labor, for example, which should be the most important priority for a pro-workers group.
Posts about the ongoing child labour in the US appear on hexbear and lemmygrad frequently…
Trump isn’t president, It’s not weird for leftists to criticise those in power more often, nor an offensive organisation responsible from bombing innocent working people or a banderite state for that matter
nor an offensive organisation responsible from bombing innocent working people
Weird that you mention this. I assume you mean NATO, because there is another organization responsible for bombing innocent working people right now, as well as taking the working people of their own country and sending them to die. Why is criticism reserved only for the one that did not start the current war?
banderite state
Can you show in what way is Ukraine more right-wing than Russia?
Why is criticism reserved only for the one that did not start the current war?
Probably because none of us live in Russia, so criticizing them is a waste of time. Of course they suck, but there’s nothing we can do about it. Nobody in Russia is ever going to read our criticism.
We do, however, mostly live in NATO-aligned countries. We CAN affect change in our own countries. That is a productive conversation to have.
Can you show in what way is Ukraine more right-wing than Russia?
Nobody is claiming that. You’re having an argument with a guy you made up.
Can you show in what way is Ukraine more right-wing than Russia?
I hate the Russian government for being cynical liberal mafiosos who use reactionary rhetoric similar to if Republicans were transposed there (“our enemies are exporting homosexuality to us to weaken us” etc). That is still substantially different from making your #1 national hero a Holocaust perpetrator, which Ukraine has done.
“600 page report on the contents of Hunter Biden’s laptop”
Idk about Lemmygrad, I can’t speak for them (I also couldnt find this post when I went to check, and I doubt its slipped off the first two pages in the five hours since you posted this?)
But on Hexbear we think the Hunter Biden story is funny and dont take it seriously. We post about it to mock it.
Supporting Trump is when you show interest in (admittedly boring and inconsequential) ongoing news issues.
Biden is a right wing monster who literally wrote the 1994 Crime Bill that has caused over a generation of misery, horror, and suffering. Not going to get in to the other ones because we literally have several pinned posts on the matter and I’m sick of re-iterating them to ideological brick walls.
Posting about Trump or Putin being bad would be akin to making posts about ISIS being bad: it goes without saying.
Like 99% of people on this platform already agrees with you, it’s really not a contentious issue. There’s no significant MAGA or Russian nationalist instance federated. None of their supporters would see it, it would be a completely moot point.
Oh how I wish that was true. Unfortunately I’ve seen far too many people support Russia in this war, both offline and online, including here.
Maybe I’m wrong about hexbear, I certainly hope that I am, but on lemmygrad I saw long posts with many upvotes explaining how this war is a good thing and Putin is a hero that is fighting against the capitalists etc.
Edit: and now lemmygrad had Hunter’s laptop on the front page. Could they be any more obvious?
Edit2: lol, you almost had me believing that I was wrong and just too paranoid. Then in this very thread I got two people from hexbear telling me how NATO and Ukraine are evil, heavily upvoted. Still nothing bad about either Trump or Putin. Thanks.
Its because we don’t have to convince y’all that Trump and Putin are bad because you already think that. We’d just be spitting into an echo chamber, preaching to the choir. There’s no point. To be clear we dunk on Trump all the time. We do not like him.
Why do you think that leftists have to say “but also btw Trump is also bad” every time we criticize Biden? That would make no sense.
Right, but if you made a post about how Putin is a great leader or Republicans have better policies and child labour, homophobia and lower taxes on the rich are good on Hexbear you’re going to get shat on in the comments if not outright banned.
Criticizing NATO is more pressing because online discourse is extremely pro-NATO. Reddit, for example, loves NATO expansion and loved when Finland joined. None of the disdain for NATO is praise for Putin being a corrupt nationalist.
Also anything involving Hunter Biden is funny. He’s just an obscenely offbeat person. While the Trump children (except Tiffany and for now Barron) are just slimy sycophants trying to gain daddy’s approval while swindling money out of MAGA morons, Hunter is doing cocaine and sleeping with prostitutes. Its never really in our discourse for anti-Biden posts to criticize Hunter, he’s become a micro celebrity in his own right. If anything we literally like Hunter better than Joe
We had a user who would uncritically support Russia and Operation Z. A “Z poster”, if you will. They were banned on several accounts and no one really missed them.
Some of us tepidly support the CPRF, which is largely controlled opposition. We recognize that counting since 2014, there’s a lot of propaganda, civilian strikes, and land mines coming from both sides. Most of us favor an immediate armistice along the present LOC that follows pretty closely a “dividing line” for the plurality ethnicity as evidenced by the past 30 years of linguistic, electoral, and poling data. And we favor quick peace as opposed to continued hostility that likely will go nowhere.
It sucks that Ukraine’s self-determination is being jeopardized by Russia. It sucks that Luhansk’s self-determination is being jeopardized by Ukraine. It sucks that there’s a geopolitical standoff between the two strongest military powers that overlays this. It sucks that the only imaginable ruling party in Russia is a reactionary capitalist one that was ushered in by Clinton’s intervention. And it sucks that they’re all probably just going to die in a field to resolve it, and make the situation in Bosnia look like a vacation resort in comparison.
There is a silver lining in that we are seeing a great power struggle to subjugate its neighbor, and also in that the wearing down of NATO and Russia allows the less belligerent, more progressive, emerging superpower to have more sway in the world. Some might say that makes it “worth it” but I certainly don’t.
Most of us favor an immediate armistice along the present LOC
This is uncritically supporting the Z operation. It rewards the attacker and gives them absolutely no reason to not try again in 10 years (either in the same country or in another one). It’s also what happened in 2014 and you see the results of that now.
Would you favor an immediate armistice with the Nazis in 1943? I surely hope not, but that would be a quick peace, very much like what the advocate for now.
I’m not sure you know the meaning of the word uncritical but go off.
Also, just so we’re on the same page, what do you believe happened in 2014 and what has happened since then until Feb 2022? What political and demographic conditions do you believe set the stage for the conflict that has been going on since then?
Your comparison to WW2 in 1943 is also wildly off. For one, you’ve got it mixed up which side is wearing the Nazi insignia and celebrating Nazi collaborators and enthusiastic participants in the Holocaust. For another, the USSR turned the war around in 1943. It would make no sense to call for armistice when you’re winning. Ukraine is currently stalled and bleeding manpower and materiel. The counteroffensive is all but done, were it not for Western insistence that fighting continues to the last Ukrainian.
For one, you’ve got it mixed up which side is wearing the Nazi insignia and celebrating Nazi collaborators and enthusiastic participants in the Holocaust.
I don’t know, which side are Wagner and Rogozin on?
For another, the USSR turned the war around in 1943. It would make no sense to call for armistice when you’re winning. Ukraine is currently stalled and bleeding manpower and materiel. The counteroffensive is all but done, were it not for Western insistence that fighting continues to the last Ukrainian.
USSR was just as stalled in early 1943, bleeding manpower and materiel, getting massive war supplies from the USA, and the West was insisting that fighting continues to the last Russian. Sounds familiar?
I don’t know, which side are Wagner and Rogozin on?
Okay but can you actually name institutional promotion of nazism? For example publishing celebrations of Bandera, putting the OUN trident on old soviet monuments, funding neonazi run youth camps, etc?
I’m guessing you can’t because while there are certainly Nazi Russians they’ve also tried to suppress any sort of Nazi organizing within Russia. The state is hostile to organized Nazism unlike Ukraine.
To be clear, theyre still a right wing neoliberal hellscape, but it is a low bar to clear and one clears it.
While it should go as without saying I think it’s pretty hard to take it that way when the following statements get made a) The legitimate Ukraine government was overthrown in a NATO croup, b) Ukraine government is a neo-nazi government, c) DPR and LPR are legitimate countries and d) NATO started the war in Ukraine. Every single one of those is a Russian state propagated talking point, all of them made around nuggets of facts (like the leaked chat where some US officials were discussing who should or shouldn’t be in the new government) but ultimately warped into something that can’t definitely be proven true or false. Thus whoever spreads those talking points wants to believe those statements as true, which begs the question of why to believe they’re true.
a) The legitimate Ukraine government was overthrown in a NATO croup, b) Ukraine government is a neo-nazi government, c) DPR and LPR are legitimate countries and d) NATO started the war in Ukraine. Every single one of those is a Russian state propagated talking point, all of them made around nuggets of facts
So, theyre all Russian talking points but theyre also all supported by evidence?
This is a thing that annoys me about liberal conceptions of bias. Everything is biased, the question is how factual things are.
(like the leaked chat where some US officials were discussing who should or shouldn’t be in the new government)
Yes, this is what we call discussing who should be in the puppet government. You’ll note that they kept the moderate “we should be nuetral between the US and Russia” organizers out and brought the nazis in.
So, theyre all Russian talking points but theyre also all supported by evidence?
As if to prove my point… I said they’re statements made around certain known fact, facts that don’t really prove the statement. Like the “coup”. Fact is that there was a discussion between Nuland and Pyatt, which proves US was in talks with the opposition. But the fact doesn’t shine a light on the extent of their talks, including if they were plotting a coup or how much Ukrainians listened to them. To claim it was a coup you have to believe it was one topic of the discussions and the Ukrainians listened.
This is a thing that annoys me about liberal conceptions of bias. Everything is biased, the question is how factual things are.
I don’t have problem understanding that things are biased. It’s just odd how western narrative get criticism but Russian narrative is seemingly taken without question.
Yes, this is what we call discussing who should be in the puppet government. You’ll note that they kept the moderate “we should be nuetral between the US and Russia” organizers out and brought the nazis in.
You just said the question is how factual things are, so factual proof that nazis were brought in? Because from the leak they were actually talking to keep ultranationalists like Tyahnybok out.
Fact is that there was a discussion between Nuland and Pyatt, which proves US was in talks with the opposition.
Talking about who should be in government and those people “coincidentally” being installed is plotting to install a puppet government.
But the fact doesn’t shine a light on the extent of their talks, including if they were plotting a coup or how much Ukrainians listened to them. To claim it was a coup you have to believe it was one topic of the discussions and the Ukrainians listened.
Or were forced to. The point is we know they were successful at installing their people and keeping others out, and “it was just a coincidence” seems improbable given how popular Klitsch was.
It’s just odd how western narrative get criticism but Russian narrative is seemingly taken without question.
The western narrative deserves criticism. And hexbear is very critical of the Russian narrative, just not the things that they say that are supported by evidence.
You just said the question is how factual things are, so factual proof that nazis were brought in? Because from the leak they were actually talking to keep ultranationalists like Tyahnybok out.
The thing is Tyahnybok was a nobody politically, they went with the more well known Yats as prime Minister. You’ll note that Yats is the leader of the “Fatherland” party
They also say about the defacto leader of the movement Klitsch and the other moderate democrats:
I guess… in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I’m just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together.
I want to ask the reader something, what is being said here? Does this come off as innocent?
No, exactly. And I think we’ve got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I’m still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych (garbled) that. In the meantime there’s a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I’m sure there’s a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep… we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out here and help to midwife this thing. The other issue is some kind of outreach to Yanukovych but we probably regroup on that tomorrow as we see how things start to fall into place.
Because to me this reads as plotting to install certain leaders within Ukraines new government.
You’re literally proving my point. You’ve added nothing to factually prove the coup, you’re adding assumptions to make the fact fit the narrative. Also Yats is not the leader of the Fatherland party, he used to be there but moved to People’s front in 2014.
You’re literally proving my point. You’ve added nothing to factually prove the coup
I dont need to add more stuff. What they said makes it obvious they’re talking about a soft or hard coup. You’re being shown a red balloon and asking for more proof it’s a red balloon.
What would you accept as proof, if not the senior US officials there talking about who should be in government and about moving to make it happen?
Also Yats is not the leader of the Fatherland party, he used to be there but moved to People’s front in 2014.
Oh, cool, the people’s front! Let’s learn more about them:
The Ukrainian People’s Party (Ukrainian: Українська Народна Партія; Ukrains’ka Narodna Partiya) is a political party in Ukraine, registered on Old Year’s Day 1999 as the Ukrainian National Movement
Oh. Cool. A nationalist pseudo populist organization. Where have I seen those before?
Russian politicians were also talking how Russia should nuke Nevada test site, so I guess Russia has nuked America because the only thing required to make it true is someone talking about it.
The Ukrainian People’s Party (Ukrainian: Українська Народна Партія; Ukrains’ka Narodna Partiya) is a political party in Ukraine, registered on Old Year’s Day 1999 as the Ukrainian National Movement
For fuck sake, at the very least search for the right thing. not this, but this.
Russian politicians were also talking how Russia should nuke Nevada test site, so I guess Russia has nuked America because the only thing required to make it true is someone talking about it.
Did a nuke go off at the Nevada test site in a way that wasn’t connected to US nuclear testing? If so, it would be reasonable to assume the Russians who talked about doing it did it if it furthered their geopolitical objectives.
For fuck sake, at the very least search for the right thing. not this, but this.
Oh, sorry. But still, theyre described as a conservative nationalist party and split from the “Fatherland” party. Also the leader of Azov Battalion was on their military council. Hrmm.
it would be reasonable to assume the Russians who talked about doing it did it if it furthered their geopolitical objectives.
Now you’re word for word proving what I originally claimed. If something happened and another factual event happened, that may or may not be related, and you believe they’re related then it’s okay to make the assumption that asserts your belief.
But still, theyre described as a conservative nationalist party and split from the “Fatherland” party.
Conservative doesn’t mean neonazi and maybe they split to be less radical?
Also the leader of Azov Battalion was on their military council. Hrmm.
I’m tired of constantly correcting you so I’m just going say wrong
Now you’re word for word proving what I originally claimed. If something happened and another factual event happened, that may or may not be related, and you believe they’re related then it’s okay to make the assumption that asserts your belief.
Yes, it is extremely reasonable.
If John Smith talked about killing Jake Jones and was recorded, and then Jake Jones showed up killed as John Smith described he would be, then it would be reasonable to assume that John Smith killed Jake Jones. Jake Jones’ head could have just done that spontaneously, but it is unlikely.
Do you have an alternate explanation for them saying “we’re going to install the people we want and keep out the people we dont” and then that happening?
Conservative doesn’t mean neonazi and maybe they split to be less radical?
Okay but there are neonazis in the Wikipedia article you linked about them
Begin article quote
The military council is a special body of People’s Front. It develops proposals for strengthening of the defence system of Ukraine.
The council was created on 10 September 2014 together with the political and coordinating councils of the party. It was formed by the party congress which also approved the council’s composition. It included the Chief of Staff of the party and Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Oleksandr Turchynov, Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, coordinator of the “Information Resistance” blog, Lt. Col. Dmytro Tymchuk, former acting Head of the Presidential Administration and co-founder of the revived National Guard Serhiy Pashynskiy and former secretary of the National Security and Defence Council of Ukraine, Euromaidan commandant and organizer of the Maidan self-defense units Andriy Parubiy.
The council is made up of leading commanders of the territorial defense battalions: Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion, Yuriy Bereza, commander of the Dnipro Battalion, Kostyantyn Mateichenko, commander of the Artemivsk battalion, Roman Pytski, commander of the Chernihiv battalion, Andriy Teteruk, commander of the Myrotvorets battalion, Yevhen Deydey, commander of the Kyiv-1 battalion, Mykola Shvalya, commander of the Zoloti Vorota battalion, Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion Serhiy Sydoryn, vice-battalion commander of the National Guard and Mykhailo Havryluk, a soldier of the Kyivska Rus battalion.
End article quote
I’m tired of constantly correcting you so I’m just going say wrong
Begin article quote
The council is made up of leading commanders of the territorial defense battalions: Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov Battalion, Yuriy Bereza, commander of the Dnipro Battalion, Kostyantyn Mateichenko, commander of the Artemivsk battalion, Roman Pytski, commander of the Chernihiv battalion, Andriy Teteruk, commander of the Myrotvorets battalion, Yevhen Deydey, commander of the Kyiv-1 battalion, Mykola Shvalya, commander of the Zoloti Vorota battalion, Ihor Lapin, company commander of the Aidar Battalion Serhiy Sydoryn, vice-battalion commander of the National Guard and Mykhailo Havryluk, a soldier of the Kyivska Rus battalion.
If John Smith talked about killing Jake Jones and was recorded, and then Jake Jones showed up killed as John Smith described he would be, then it would be reasonable to assume that John Smith killed Jake Jones. Jake Jones’ head could have just done that spontaneously, but it is unlikely.
It’s how 4chan and Reddit decided Sunil Tripathi was the Boston marathon bomber. A bombing happened, someone knew Sunil had gone missing, images kinda looked similar, people wanted to find a connection so they made whatever connection they could find. He wasn’t the bomber but people still started a witchhunt based on assumptions they thought were reasonable. So no, I don’t think blindly taking assumptions as factuals is extremely reasonable.
Do you have an alternate explanation for them saying “we’re going to install the people we want and keep out the people we dont” and then that happening?
Without any further information I’d say they’re just discussing ideas (in this case who should be in the government) to present to Yatseniuk with the goal of making sure Russia doesn’t sabotage the movement. Nothing about it implies planning a coup.
Okay but there are neonazis in the Wikipedia article you linked about them
I’m going to need more specifics than an information dump. Outside of the Azov being in the military council (which I admit was my mistake for not noticing, and I’ll get to why that’s not proof) and Andriy Parubiy (who I wouldn’t consider a Nazi because he been a target of that kind of disinformation campaign by pro-russian media) nobody else catches my eye.
As for the addition of Azov in that list. The council is not made up of territorial defense battalions, it’s made up of leaders of volunteer battalions. Azov was at that moment a volunteer battalion which is why they were included, along with the other leaders of the volunteer battalions. He wasn’t picked because he was neo-nazi, he was picked because he was leading one of the biggest volunteer battalions. The idea that the government is a neo-nazi government because the biggest political party in that government created a special body and that special body has one known neo-nazi is just bewildering. Look at how many hoops you have to jump through just to have some connection between neo-nazis and the 2014 Ukrainian parliament, and then tell me that is reasonable.
It’s how 4chan and Reddit decided Sunil Tripathi was the Boston marathon bomber. A bombing happened, someone knew Sunil had gone missing, images kinda looked similar, people wanted to find a connection so they made whatever connection they could find. He wasn’t the bomber but people still started a witchhunt based on assumptions they thought were reasonable. So no, I don’t think blindly taking assumptions as factuals is extremely reasonable.
Okay, are you saying that this is a case of mistaken identity? I dont get what you’re trying to claim.
I treat the assumption as fact within my internal worldview because it is the only explanation I can think of for what happened and it has strong supporting evidence. We have records of them plotting, so they probably carried out their plot as it seems that what happened mirrored what their plot wanted.
Again, I would love an alternative explanation for what they said they wanted and were doing lining up with what happened.
As for the addition of Azov in that list. The council is not made up of territorial defense battalions, it’s made up of leaders of volunteer battalions. Azov was at that moment a volunteer battalion which is why they were included, along with the other leaders of the volunteer battalions. He wasn’t picked because he was neo-nazi, he was picked because he was leading one of the biggest volunteer battalions. The idea that the government is a neo-nazi government because the biggest political party in that government created a special body and that special body has one known neo-nazi is just bewildering. Look at how many hoops you have to jump through just to have some connection between neo-nazis and the 2014 Ukrainian parliament, and then tell me that is reasonable.
Wait, did you not go over the list and look at the political history of everyone involved? It’s much more than one nazi.
Do your research and then take a second attempt at replying.
Okay, are you saying that this is a case of mistaken identity? I dont get what you’re trying to claim.
I’m saying they took two factual things and then reasoned themselves to believe those things are connected. Which is exactly what you’re doing here.
I treat the assumption as fact within my internal worldview because it is the only explanation I can think of for what happened and it has strong supporting evidence. We have records of them plotting, so they probably carried out their plot as it seems that what happened mirrored what their plot wanted.
You’ve taken two factual things and then assumed based on your beliefs that they must be connected. There’s no evidence of them actually plotting a coup. I even gave you an alternative that very much suits what the leaked discussion was about.
Wait, did you not go over the list and look at the political history of everyone involved? It’s much more than one nazi.
Do your research and then take a second attempt at replying.
I’m not here to do your work lazyass. You said there are more, find your own proof and be more specific. Wikipedia dumps are not proof.
I’m saying they took two factual things and then reasoned themselves to believe those things are connected. Which is exactly what you’re doing here.
Okay, yes. And it is reasonable. Do you have any other explanation for what happened?
Edit: lol lmao, this is your explanation
Without any further information I’d say they’re just discussing ideas (in this case who should be in the government) to present to Yatseniuk with the goal of making sure Russia doesn’t sabotage the movement. Nothing about it implies planning a coup.
That’s just straight up counterfactual to what they actually say lmao
End edit
You’ve taken two factual things and then assumed based on your beliefs that they must be connected. There’s no evidence of them actually plotting a coup. I even gave you an alternative that very much suits what the leaked discussion was about.
They’re literally talking about who should be in and out of government and moving to make it happen.
I’m not here to do your work lazyass. You said there are more, find your own proof and be more specific. Wikipedia dumps are not proof.
You’re literally the one being lazy.
I’m done, you’re more than entitled to your willfully ignorant, arrogant bullshit.
I don’t think I could ever make you believe that we came to these conclusions based on an analysis of world history, economics, and the current geopolitical reality and didn’t need any help from Yuri at the FSB.
You literally don’t understand how we analyze geopolitics.
“The most revolutionary thing one can do is always to proclaim loudly what is happening.”
Trump isn’t in power, no one is defending Putin, the US set the stage for the invasion and knew exactly how it would play out. Trying to claim they are defending their right to sovereignty, which is bullshit.
The comment was about defending Russia and Putin. You said no one was, you were wrong. Right wingers are the ones doing that, so I showed receipts, to prove you are wrong. Sorry reality upsets you.
Also you literally linked a source to theconservative.com, you can’t make this stuff up.
Its not a contradiction, several politicians, Biden included, spoke of what would happen if the US threatened NATO expansion into Ukraine. Obama, McCain, Kerry, Nuland, and now Biden set the stage for Ukraine to get invaded. Claiming it was to protect democracy which is bullshit. If the US cared about democracy and sovereignty they wouldn’t have orchestrated a coup with the Pakistanian PM.
This war is 100% about decimating Ukraine so capitalists can go in and divide the spoils.
I’m betting you made a judgment based on what you thought the website was. The website was theCONVERSATION.com. But go ahead and stick to your echo chamber and stay ignorant
Honestly it’s exhausting to the whole lemmy experience that every time something gets even slightly political, there’s an extreme communist in the comments pushing their agenda.
I can literally say “hey man they all suck yo fuck politics am I right?” And in comes a guy who tells me I’m a Republican or Democrat or fuck America, whatever. I can even agree that the news is biased in America, and I’ll still get the same response.
It makes conversations for the average consumer on the platform unproductive at best, unsettling in its worst form.
For me it’s just the fact that people have delved so deep into their echo chambers that they’ve lost all sense of what regular people think. Like I’m fine with someone being an extreme communist, they can have that opinion, but it seems like a lot of people on here talk to other extreme communists so much that they think more nuanced communists are somehow right wing. It doesn’t matter how much you try to concede to acknowledge their viewpoint, their personal Overton windows have shifted so far that they exclude everyone but people exactly like them, and it just makes conversations impossible.
“The other party” implies that there is a party representing the left/workers. I assume you are talking about American politics, and are specifically implying that party is the Democratic Party. To which all I can say, if you are actually serious, is LOL.
“There is only one party in the United States, the Property Party … and it has two right wings: Republican and Democrat. Republicans are a bit stupider, more rigid, more doctrinaire in their laissez-faire capitalism than the Democrats, who are cuter, prettier, a bit more corrupt — until recently … and more willing than the Republicans to make small adjustments when the poor, the black, the anti-imperialists get out of hand. But, essentially, there is no difference between the two parties.”
Gore Vidal
This is out of date, of course. Now the left wing of the Property Party is completely unable and uninterested in wielding power, while the right wing of the Property has descended in to Christian Fascism. But it conveys the essential reality of the situation.
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