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Gaza says Israel's strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people

  • Hamas-run government says Israeli strikes on Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza killed at least 195 Palestinians, with concerns raised by the UN that these could constitute war crimes.
  • Evacuation of foreign nationals from Gaza is underway, with 320 already crossed into Egypt; about 7,500 are expected to leave within two weeks.
  • The strikes targeted Hamas military leaders and infrastructure, with Israel’s campaign responding to Hamas’ cross-border attacks from Oct. 7.
  • U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to visit Israel and Jordan to discuss the conflict and the need to minimize civilian casualties.

Media Bias Fact Check (Reuters):

Overall, we rate Reuters Least Biased based on objective reporting and Very High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing of information with minimal bias and a clean fact check record.

Crikeste ,

“Concerns raised by the UN that these could constitute war crimes.”

Just dissolve already, you powerless spineless cowards.

You are actively allowing innocent people to die as you do NOTHING

bingbong ,

They unfortunately have very little ability to enforce much of anything.

They have also done plenty, from keeping peacekeepers stationed in southern Lebanon, running hospitals and schools in Gaza, keeping said hospitals and schools open despite verbal threats by the IDF and bombings, distributing food and water, to providing a platform for the US to prove its hypocrisy on a global stage as it consistently votes against a ceasefire.

UN officials have repeatedly raised alarms throughout this conflict about the attrocities they are witnessing in Gaza. The problem lies with America and Israel ignoring all of them.

DarkGamer , (edited )
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

"Reuters was unable to verify the casualty numbers"

Those figures are from Hamas, who has an incentive to inflate casualty numbers.

It seems like a bad idea to stay there given that Jabalia has been under bombardment for the last month, IDF forces have been very clear that civilians need to evacuate north Gaza, they will consider those who remain to be potential enemy combatants, ("terrorist sympathizers," as they phrased it,) and there is a network of Hamas' underground tunnels beneath the area that constitute a valid military target. Of course Hamas wants people to stay where they are despite all this so they can remain human shields and make Israel look bad in the media when the inevitable consequence of refusing to evacuate occurs.

Seems like Israel is sending a strong message that hiding among civilians isn't an effective shield for Hamas anymore. Much of the Palestinian strategy has been to provoke attacks then portray Israel as war criminals when they inevitably counterattack, and it doesn't seem like Israel cares about this concern trolling anymore.

Blackmist ,

I had somebody tell me yesterday that this refugee camp is in fact a city.

As if bombing a city is better.

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

War sucks. Belligerent cities are often bombed. Civilians always suffer. This is the inevitable consequence of that city's government slaughtering hundreds of civilians of a state with superior military capabilities; I'm not sure what they thought would happen.

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

New euphemism dropped: “Belligerent cities” is the new refugee camp.

DarkGamer , (edited )
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

New euphemism dropped: “Belligerent cities” is the new refugee camp.

Gaza's government attacked Israel in an act of war. This means they are a belligerent against Israel in this conflict. The population centers they control, aka, cities, are being attacked in response. I'm not using a euphemism, I'm calling this exactly what it is.

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Unless the people of the city are the same as the government, I don’t see how you can say the population is belligerent. I don’t think we should say the Israeli citizens are belligerent because their government funded Hamas and are doing a genocide.

DarkGamer , (edited )
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

Unless the people of the city are the same as the government, I don’t see how you can say the population is belligerent. I don’t think we should say the Israeli citizens are belligerent because their government funded Hamas and are doing a genocide.

Huh? Israel is indeed belligerent, because they are at war. It seems like you don't know what this word means.

BreakDecks ,

I think there are two issues:

  1. “Belligerent” has more than one meaning, and people are being tongue-in-cheek using it as an adjective rather than a noun.
  2. Generally, the noun refers to combatants, not civilians, because deliberately killing civilians isn’t just an inevitable part of war, it is a war crime (no matter whatever context you think justifies accepting civilians as collateral damage).
DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

Generally, the noun refers to combatants

...or in this case, a nation and its territories

deliberately killing civilians isn’t just an inevitable part of war, it is a war crime (no matter whatever context you think justifies accepting civilians as collateral damage).

  • killing civilians is deliberate
  • killing civilians is collateral damage

Pick one.

Apollo ,

I’m not sure you know what some of those words mean.

Auli ,

Sure and you can use that as to why Hamas did what they did.

teichflamme ,

Sure, but it’s Gaza being bombed now. So should have tried a different approach probably.

Crikeste ,

Ah yeah, people being actively ethnically cleansed should just sit back and accept their fate.

SURELY there is NOT ONE SINGLE thing Israelis did to provoke Oct. 7 attacks.

Oh yeah, it wasn’t just ONE SINGLE THING. It was THOUSANDS OF THINGS. Those things being war crimes committed against Palestinians. And not just recently, it has happened for decades.

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

Ah yeah, people being actively ethnically cleansed should just sit back and accept their fate.
SURELY there is NOT ONE SINGLE thing Israelis did to provoke Oct. 7 attacks.
It was THOUSANDS OF THINGS. ... for decades

Rage and violence won't change Gaza's realpolitik situation, it will make things worse.
All the perceived historical grievances in the world won't change Gaza's realpolitik situation.
They cannot win through violence. They will lose everything if they insist on it. I'm saying Palestinians should instead try pacification and diplomacy, it is the only viable path to peace where they have hope of achieving some objectives that are important to them. Ignoring the fundamental realities of their situation brought them to here.

FUBAR ,

What would a nation do if their lands keep getting seized, your people marginalised, your plight ignored by almost all countries?

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

Sue for peace, accept the least terrible terms you can.

At one time Palestinians had so much support all their neighbors went to war for them, this goodwill appears to have since evaporated due to their behaviors and unwillingness to compromise. Now they are just being used as convenient pawns against Israel, as their lands ebb away. If they are to to be free and autonomous once again I don't see any other viable path.

sirboozebum ,

It’s nice to be able to tag people who support oppression and ethnic cleansing.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

There is both a city and a refigee camp inside the city with the same name.

Mrkawfee ,

Zionist psychopaths are above the law.

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

Actual Reuters headline:

Hamas says Israel’s strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people

OP’s headline :

Gaza says Israel’s strikes on refugee camp kill more than 195 people

mlg ,
@mlg@lemmy.world avatar

Gaza’s Hamas-run media office

Its weird seeing both Hamas and non-Hamas government related bodies. Kind of confusing juggling Gaza without Hamas, Gaza with Hamas, and Hamas’s militant wing specifically.

UnspecificGravity ,

Hamas is the defacto government of Palestine for close to ten years now. It’s hard to untangle because they are genuinely intertwined. There isn’t a significant difference between “government of Gaza” and “Hamas”.

HumbertTetere ,

There’s more to Palestine than Gaza, so while your 3rd sentence is very much true and more central to the issue at hand, the first one is quite incorrect and might lead people to forget about Abbas/Fatah.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Thag sucks. But maybe it’s Reuters changing their headlines?

yakultdrinkr OP , (edited )

You’re right. Reuters changed it after this was posted.

MeanEYE ,
@MeanEYE@lemmy.world avatar

So we are suppose to trust them equally as with that hospital attack.

Sparlock ,

Hamas never made that claim.

It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.

Please stop spreading misinformation to serve as a way to delegitimize one side. There are plenty of REAL facts you can use.

bpmd ,

URL says Gaza, Reuters changed the headline after it was posted.

febra ,

I don’t see a problem here. I trust their numbers. They have released lists with all the people killed by Israel before and parts of those lists were confirmed by relatives living abroad. “Hamas-run X,Y,Z” is just a cheap way of trying to delegitimize palestinian deaths.

DarkroomDoc ,

Like the 500 dead in the self inflicted hospital parking lot? Come on.

Hamas is a motivated and non-credible source for details.

TinyPanda ,

Theres still zero hard evidence to support it was Islamic Jihad and not the IDF, but keep propagandizing. It doesnt matter how often israel lies you will take it at face value

febra ,

Hamas has launched over 35 THOUSAND rockets over the years, which has barely killed 69 people, yet somehow now all of the sudden such a rocket fails and lands on a hospital and HUNDREDS die? Sure, so be it, but why would I even believe the IDF on this one? They haven’t even provided any kind of proof. They provided a video which many organizations have debunked as being completely unrelated to the hospital rocket. Hell, even the New York Times debunked that video, and they’re definitely west aligned.

DarkroomDoc ,

That’s the point- 500 people didn’t die, it’s a made up number to grab headlines.

blitzkrieg ,

How many innocent Palestinians do you think have died since the 7th of October in general?

DarkroomDoc ,

Who knows? I sure don’t. But I don’t believe 500 people died in a parking lot and I don’t take numbers from a motivated party at face value.

febra ,

I sure hope the Hamas, IDF and the US fall under your “motivated party” definition too.

DarkroomDoc ,

Y’all are bonkers if you equivocate the US and hamas. Legit they kidnapped, raped, murdered, than paraded the dead body of a young woman through the streets. This is the same group y’all go to for info?? Nuts man….

febra , (edited )

And the IDF and the US have lied countless times before. I’m not american, nor israeli, nor an arab. I don’t need to pick a side for info here. All three (US, IDF, Hamas) have lied countless times before. Anyway, last time I checked the US has caused hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths by using bullshit reasons such as “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION”, yet you tell me I should trust them more than some terrorists that killed 1000 times less people. I don’t trust any of y’all.

If you’re american, I want you to know that your country shouldn’t be trusted at all with any kind of information. Your regime has caused countless deaths around the world. It has helped fascist dictators rise to power. Dictators that ended up killing hundreds of thousands of innocents. You don’t have to take this from me. Take it from your very own government. All of this is declassified information. web.archive.org/web/…/ChurchReport.asp

So again, get off your high horse here. Hamas is a shit terrorist organization, I won’t deny that. But I sure as hell am not dumb enough to believe your government on absolutely anything. Nor the IDF which has killed countless innocents before October 7th alone.

blitzkrieg ,

Do you have any idea about the US’s history? Did you forget their lie about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq to invade them, and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians? This is just one lie we’re talking about.

The US has committed several war crimes, and killed millions of innocent civilians, they have killed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than Hamas killed and will ever kill.

DarkroomDoc ,

A nice quote from the FUCKING CHARTER of Hamas “ The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! “

The organization is designed around genocide. You play with the idea that everyone is equally bad- that because the U.S. has done terrible things then all terrible things are equal. But Hamas was founded with the goal of eliminating a population. It’s not a fucking resistance movement fighting for survival- it’s a terrorist organization intended to wipe out another population.

How you equivocate the two is beyond me. If the Declaration of Independence had a line describing the death of Mexico or Canada then sure. But only one group has specifically called for the elimination of the a population- and that’s Hamas of the Jews.

blitzkrieg ,

1- Israel has been killing Palestinians and stealing their lands decades before Hamas was even a thing.

2- Yes, the US is much much much worse than Hamas since they invaded several countries and killed millions of innocent civilians, they’re even the only country to ever nuke another country, so yeah, the US is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than any other entity on Earth, it’s probably a tie with Israel too.

DarkroomDoc ,

Your response is nothing but theatrics and exaggeration. The US worse than North Korea, where no free will or choice exists? Or how about china, with ongoing Uyghur concentration camps? Or nazi Germany and the holocaust?

This is not to say the US is blameless- it’s to say that there are degrees of evil- and founding your organization on the death of someone else puts you at bottom of the barrel, by default.

blitzkrieg ,

How many innocent civilians has North Korea killed compared to the US? How many countries have they invaded?

founding your organization on the death of someone else puts you at bottom of the barrel, by default.

I agree, and since the US was built on annihilating native Americans and stealing their lands, they are at the bottom of the barrel. Glad we finally agreed on that.

blitzkrieg ,

Do you think it’s thousands of innocent women and children, or less?

Sparlock ,

How to be correct while being wrong folks…

It is a made up number, by western media not Hamas.

Sparlock ,

Hamas never made that claim.

It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.

Please stop spreading misinformation to serve as a way to delegitimize one side.
There are plenty of REAL facts you can use.

DarkroomDoc ,

On the night of the explosion, the Hamas-run Gazan health ministry put the toll at 500 or more dead, which it later changed to “hundreds.”

nytimes.com/…/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-explaine…

barsoap ,

Yeah that’s the “western media just running with it” part. It really was a mis-translation by al jazeera, the guy said “casualties”. As in wounded or killed. It was way too early to actually have an accurate assessment (as should be obvious by the round number).

Sparlock ,

I’ll repeat it here since you seem like you missed reading it.

It was a doctor being interviewed by al-jazeera. Even then it was a mis-translation of what he said that western media just ran with and never fact checked.

Then like a dipshit you post me a link to a story by a western media outlet…

seriously…

A journalist for the Atlantic, New York magazine, Wired, and other outlets did a write up about it.

silentlunch.net/…/did-the-entire-media-industry-m…

You can literally watch the video and translate it online.

DarkroomDoc ,

Broski- you are trusting one guy over a credible news organization. And you cite “silent lunch”.

Isnt this scraping the bottom?? Do you have any credible sources?

Sparlock ,

Please explain what you think the following means? “A journalist for the Atlantic, New York magazine, Wired, and other outlets”

Never heard of substack either apparently. /smh

Broski- If you were SO sure it was bs why didn’t you go to the video from al-jazeera and run his interview through a translator? You can do this all yourself, DON’T take my word or the word of the journalist reporting it…
do it for yourself before you look like more of a dumbass.

We all know you won’t because it goes against your narrative and you would rather believe a lie that reaffirms your biases and bigotry.

DarkroomDoc ,

Having read the supplied article, the author has no information except that kills might be mistranslated. Not to get into the weeds, but it doesn’t dispute the source, nor does it offer more credible information.

And as a rule of thumb- a single dude publishing a substack doesn’t deserve more credibility than a long time news source. Not that the article supplies and information that might be argued- the whole point is that he didn’t get any information.

Sparlock ,

Called it.

DarkroomDoc ,

Not sure what you mean?

I read the article and it didn’t say what you said it says.

Sparlock ,

You have repeatedly demonstrated your inability to read and understand words multiple times in just this comment thread.

And continued to do it here once again.

DarkroomDoc ,

You can’t articulate your argument. That’s on you, bud.

Sparlock ,

I have multiple times had to have the EXACT words from a prior comment quoted for you to potentially comprehend anything. I’m calling into question your ability to asses that article whatsoever as you have demonstrated your lack of ability over and over. That’s on you, bud.

Kindly piss off of you can’t follow along.

DarkroomDoc ,

Don’t be an ass. Your claim was I was spreading misinformation because hamas never said that 500 people died, and was a product of western media. This isn’t what your article argues, rather that dead might have been mistranslated from injured. The core thrust of my argument remains the same- data supplied by Hamas is suspect, at best.

Again, if you’re able, explain your argument.

Sparlock ,

Try to re-read.
It might come to you.
You have all the tools needed to solve this issue.

DarkroomDoc ,

A loss for words is still a loss.

It’s a shame, really. Not that the herd here will care- but I have always been a liberal. For 20 years I’ve voted democratic and pushed for understanding. But things are changing- have changed. We’ve polarized to the point of absurdism, arguing that one atrocity is ok and the other is not solely on the parties involved. We’ve bathed so much in the incestuous pond of cable media and internet misinformation that anything that isn’t exactly “party line” is dismissed and derided.

Currently, the line is perceived power is ultimate evil- that everyone with it is by definition a victimizer everyone without is by definition a victim. In this paradigm, the Jews, ironically, are the colonialists and can do no good, while Hamas can do no wrong. Reality is rarely so black and white.

This is no justification of Netanyahu administration. But equivocating here is wrong. Hamas started the war with capturing, raping, and murdering innocents, and wants to avoid repercussions by hiding behind their own civilians. We should be able to denounce evil where it lies- with those who caused the war. Want to end the war? Call for Hamas to surrender.

Sparlock ,

TLDR. You would make a lousy journalist and seem prone to leaning on an appeal to authority. You still have the ability to check yourself.

dustyData ,

This is stupid distraction and whataboutism at this point. Israel has done way worse ever since.

yakultdrinkr OP ,

No editorializing from me. Reuters changed the title after I submitted the post. You can see it cached by Photon here:

https://lemdro.id/pictrs/image/265494c8-f54a-49a4-8100-a901016c1f70.jpeg

Empricorn , (edited )

So… Shouldn’t you now change it to match what Reuters currently shows? (For those that don’t know, you can edit titles, unlike with Reddit.)

EDIT: Downvote this all you want, but since they can be edited shouldn’t titles be updated to match an organization’s corrected headline? If I’m in the minority, why not?

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

I guess they should but it’s not always noticeable.

yakultdrinkr OP ,

Good reminder that titles can be updated. Reuters had already changed the title again to a completely different update. I’d also rather not try keeping up with it and to instead leave the version from when people first read and began commenting about it.

UnspecificGravity , (edited )

Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine. They are the authority in Gaza that releases these numbers.

Correction: Hamas is the government body of Gaza, not of all Palestine, which includes the West Bank.

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

True, but it’s not like that election wasn’t ripe with controversy around its legitimacy. At the very least there was notable voter intimidation being practiced by a militarized group.

UnspecificGravity ,

I’m certainly not endorsing the Hamas leadership of Gaza or their legitimacy, but the fact remains that there isn’t a real distinction between “Gaza leaders” and “Hamas” at this point.

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

Hamas is literally the elected government of Palestine.

Hamas is the government of Gaza, not all of Palestine. Palestine also includes the west bank which is under Fatah/PA leadership, they lost a civil war to Hamas in Gaza after Hamas was elected there. They haven't held another election since.

UnspecificGravity ,

Thank you for the correction, I have edited accordingly.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

You could also correct the part about them being voted in. They had around 40% of the votes in a multiparty election, kicked out their opposers and took over. The current population of Gaza is 50% under 18, most people don’t live beyond 65 due to low life expectancy, and that last election was 16 years ago. They were not democratically elected and the majortiy of Gazans haven’t voted for them.

UnspecificGravity ,

That’s how voting works literally everywhere. If you count the people that don’t or can’t vote, American Presidents are elected by like twenty percent of the population, and the winner doesn’t even have to get a majority of the actual votes.

The statement that they were voted in is a true statement, so I see no reason to correct it because you don’t like that fact.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

They won seats but never formed a proper government. Sure it’s a true statement if you want to be pedantic but it’s missing the relevant context. It’s not a nice and decent election in a normal and nice environment (thanks to Israel).

Holyginz ,

To be honest, I don’t really know who to trust at this point. They both have done/are doing horrible things and innocents are suffering. But I 1000% also believe all parties involved would/do lie to serve their ends.

Garbanzo ,

Let’s just assume that Israel isn’t lying. They’re telling us that taking out one Hamas official is worth nearly two hundred innocent lives in collateral damage. Best case scenario, they’re still monsters.

Holyginz ,

Fair point.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

What is the alternative?

Garbanzo ,

There doesn’t need to be an alternative to killing children, just don’t.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

But there are two options: kill the terrorist, or don’t kill the terrorist. Your choice is to let terrorists win, if they bring enough kids.

Garbanzo ,

Nope, never said anything close to that. There are myriad ways to kill a terrorist without sinking to their level.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

Name one.

Garbanzo ,

Just go shoot him. What’s the matter? Can’t do that without losing some soldiers? How many children is a soldier worth?

emax_gomax ,

How many foreign citizens children is a soldier from your country worth? Let’s not pretend any country sees all lives as equal. The US for example uses Dron strikes for strategic targets even tho they’ve harmed civilians countless times. They see avoiding American deaths as better than killing a couple civilians.

Garbanzo ,

“What about the US” isn’t a valid excuse. Just admit that you’re down with genocide and stop trying to justify it.

emax_gomax ,

I’m not justifying it. I’m stating you’re phrasing is missing perspective.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

That’s actually a valid question. There are calculations for almost every human life.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life

moonlit2107 ,

There’s also the option of a ceasefire and diplomacy.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

Yep, that worked well before.

moonlit2107 ,

It never worked because Israelis would never admit their settlements are illegal and then break ceasefires. There is no pressure because the US waves away international courts. They have done this, blatantly, for decades.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

So it’s about settlements all of a sudden? People who yell* “kill all Jews” just want to settle.

*not just yell, they actually tried

moonlit2107 ,

A lot of the Gaza’s anger is undoubtedly misdirected at the Jewish people. Let me ask you a question, if someone evicts you and destroys your home. Then kills your extended family. Then I trap you in an open air prison so you can live in squalor. Will you be a peaceful and rational person?

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

Yes I will. And you too, I imagine, as most of the people.

AreaSIX ,

Fortunately, there are some very good historical examples of how and why you’re very wrong. Maybe you’re not the best example of what one would do under such circumstances.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

— Most of the grass is green.

— You’re very wrong. Here are some examples of yellow, and even red grass.

blitzkrieg ,

Yeah, it’s about Israel occupying Palestine. Breaking news for you, I imagine.

Aceticon ,

Nah, that’s just the a false dichotomy that’s been used to manipulate public opinion.

This whole thing has to be address via Counter Insurgency methods, but that would mean actually listenning to the Palestinians, let them have enough that they don’t want to lose it and not commit random acts of violence and land theft against them, so that the Insurgency Movement which is Hamas has little or no popular support at which point it becomes very easy to find and kill the terrorists.

However Israel has a far right government (I would even say Fascist), so it’s all about Strength and thanks in a large extent to the support of the likes of the US (plus countries like France, the UK and Germany) they have the means and the “unwavering support” to be as violent as they feel like, hence their choice of purelly violent, no moral considerations (ultimatelly, genocidal), ways of “solving” the problem.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

What they want is to “kill all Jews”. We’ve already passed that.

blitzkrieg ,

They want to kill whoever is stealing their lands and killing their people, they just happened to be Zionists.

If Israel was of a different religion, or even atheists, the result would have been the same. People fight for their land and their freedom against occupiers regardless of the occupier’s religion.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

When Ukraine “steals” land from Donetsk People Republic, you support the “stealers”, but with Israel you change your opinion to the opposite. How come?

blitzkrieg ,

What nonsense are you talking about?

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize you support Kremlin. No more questions.

ChairmanMeow ,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

That would be exactly my choice. One terrorist is not worth blowing up children over. Wait for a better opportunity that doesn’t definitely have collateral damage. A terrorist does not “win” if he lives a bit longer. Nobody is “winning” anything in Gaza anyways right now.

Besides, blowing up children is a win for the terrorists.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

What I hear from your comment is “let’s let them kill more Israeli kids”.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

What I hear from your comment is “let’s let them kill more Palestinian kids”.

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

You see? Just two options.

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I mean if the person you’re talking to only believes in two options then you are correct and they are wrong. End of discussion. But there is always a 3rd option for those not talking: receive with empathy.

The thought of people killing Israeli kids makes us upset, to the point where we might consider killing other kids if it means rooting out evil. It seems like you’re not so much saying the option is between Israelites and Palestinians, but it’s to kill or be killed?

qnick ,
@qnick@lemmy.world avatar

It is exactly that. Your third option seems too abstract to me. Would you mind clarifying what it means practically?

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

The third option is what I just demonstrated. Instead of me imposing my own feelings on the matter (pro-cease fire) I received what you were saying as an expression of a need and I try to understand it. Being able to understand this as “kill or be killed” gets more to the point, but I’m no Jesus so this is about as far as I can go… For now.

ChairmanMeow ,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

Have you considered rational thought instead?

assassin_aragorn ,

If you choose to kill a terrorist leader despite them having a bunch of civilians and children around, are you meaningfully different from them?

DarkGamer ,
@DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

In this scenario, is that terrorist leader who is hiding among civilians from his country actively killing civilians from my country? If so, it sounds like you're suggesting the moral choice is to sacrifice my own people to save his, while they continue to wage war against my civilians. Bonkers.

zbyte64 ,
@zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Damn, killing kids can actually prevent terrorism. I guess all these school shooters are the real heros.

spirinolas ,

Lets put it this way, if the Hamas leaders were hidden in a Tel-Aviv hospital filled with Israelis, would the IDF bomb it?

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Fuck yeah they would. israel killed at least 122 of their own civilians by just mass firing their tanks into kibbutzes to kill a few Hamas soldiers. They knew there were hostages and still fired at the buildings.

Unless Hamas is literally standing behind Netanyahu that man will kill anyone. He does not care about israeli civilians the same way Putin throws Russians into the meat grinder.

This is a genocide orchestrated by Netanyahu to stay in power. The exact same strat Putin is using in Ukraine.

spirinolas ,

You have a point. Just as I finished posting that comment I actually started wondering…

Dreamer ,

I mean… they kind of already did that in the October 7th attack. They would rather their people be dead than be used to release Palestinians imprisoned without trial.

Maybe it depends on the type of Israeli too. There is a lot of inter-Israeli racism and Arab-Israelis which were historically set near borders to act as buffers, aren’t as valued as their European counterparts.

endhits ,

Not creating the conditions where extremist groups thrive.

snek ,
@snek@lemmy.world avatar

Human rights orgs say they have trust in Gaza health ministry numbers. It’s safe to trust that, I would say. We have no reason or indication to doubt the numbers and they seem consistent with the amount of destruction we are seeing.

Sentrovasi ,

The sad thing to me is that I don't think either government genuinely cares about the 195 deaths except as political leverage on Hamas's side and 195 fewer problems in Netanyahu's way.

Machinist3359 ,

I really struggle to see what leverage Hamas gains by fudging their numbers. It feels like a talking point to reduce the fatality count.

This number, half this number, quarter this number... the political reality is the same. Murmurs of condemnation while the US keeps the money pump going, Israel keeps commiting war crimes, and Palestine shrinks into nothing.

WhiteHawk ,

It’s mostly to make their own people more sympathetic to their cause, I’d imagine.

aniki ,

deleted_by_author

    •
    WhiteHawk ,

    Says who? Of course the number of deaths is relevant.

    blitzkrieg ,

    Doesn’t seem to be relavent to the world, as Israel is still massacring people and the world stands and watches.

    WhiteHawk ,

    The world is not who this propaganda is meant for, though convincing outsiders of their cause is probably a welcome side-effect

    DarkGamer , (edited )
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Israel is still massacring people and the world stands and watches.

    Intent is the difference between collateral damage and massacres. Israel is attacking military targets that Hamas hides among Gazan civilians. Hamas attacks civilians for the sake of murdering and kidnapping civilians. It's wild how many here seem to be keen on supporting the genocidal underdogs simply because they are underdogs.

    blitzkrieg ,

    Israel has been occupying Palestine, killing innocent civilians and stealing their lands decades before Hamas was even a thing.

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    That's certainly the Palestinian perspective. Then, as now, there are consequences to declaring war against one's neighbor and losing, then remaining belligerent for 70 years while refusing to negotiate for a viable peace. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, proving in hindsight that unilateral withdrawal is a bad idea for them in this conflict, given recent events.

    blitzkrieg ,

    No, that’s the perspective of anyone with common sense.

    You don’t negotiate for peace with some that occupies you and wants to give you a smaller piece of your land.

    Did you expect the native Americans to just give away their land?

    Do you expect Ukraine to give away their land? If Russia won their war on Ukraine, will the world be like “Heh, they won, Ukraine in Russian now.”? The answer is no.

    DarkGamer , (edited )
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    You don’t negotiate for peace with some that occupies you and wants to give you a smaller piece of your land.

    Then current trends will continue and they will likely end up with less and less until they have nothing. Palestine has no viable path to military victory, it takes more than outrage to win wars. One ignores the realpolitik of their situation at their own peril.

    Did you expect the native Americans to just give away their land?

    They lost their ancestral lands and have since pacified themselves, because war with the US is unwinnable. Today they have freedom of movement, freedom of return, and full US citizenship. Compare this to how Gaza is faring today.

    Do you expect Ukraine to give away their land?

    Ukraine still has a viable path to conventional military victory against Russia.

    If Russia won their war on Ukraine, will the world be like “Heh, they won, Ukraine in Russian now.”? The answer is no.

    They would eventually do exactly this, but I think Ukraine will win. Borders have changed massively throughout human history and eventually the new ones get recognized, because most countries don't ignore the realpolitik of one's situation like Palestine has.

    blitzkrieg ,

    Israeli settlers already kill Palestinians and steal their land, there’s no peace with Israel.

    It seems like you suggest people should not fight for their freedom and land and should just give up. That’s a very cowardly point of view.

    And yeah obviously Ukraine can still win, because the entire world is helping them, the world is also helps Israel and turns a blind on the massacres happening in Palestine.

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Israeli settlers already kill Palestinians and steal their land, there’s no peace with Israel.

    Sounds like Hamas, look what that way of thinking is getting them.

    It seems like you suggest people should not fight for their freedom and land and should just give up.

    As a general rule, no. When said people don't have a viable path to victory through combat, yes.
    The reason they don't have freedom? All the fighting.
    The reason they are have lost and continue to lose land? All the fighting.

    obviously Ukraine can still win, because the entire world is helping them, the world is also helps Israel and turns a blind on the massacres happening in Palestine.

    It's almost like Ukraine and Palestine are wildly different and don't behave in similar ways or have similar motivations. Ukraine, like Israel, is fighting for its safety from a hostile enemy that is unwilling to make viable compromises. If they were slaughtering and kidnapping civilians and parading them around Kiev, and had been launching guerilla attacks on, say, Poland, for the last century we might not be supporting them.

    blitzkrieg ,

    The reason occupied people don’t have freedom is because they’re fighting for it?

    VirginWith40yo ,

    Don’t say more you are from Portland. We can meet eachother and mod some discord while eating pizza

    blitzkrieg ,

    You think entire city blocks bombed and leveled to the ground, entire families just disappearing from existence is not enough to sympathize, so they need to fake the numbers?

    WhiteHawk ,

    Who’s talking about sympathizing? I’m talking about joining them. It takes a bit more than sympathy for victims to become a terrorist.

    blitzkrieg ,

    When someone bombs your home, your entire neighborhood, and kills your entire family, you don’t need someone to convince you to fight back.

    WhiteHawk ,

    That applies to every single person there, does it? What are you even talking about lmao

    blitzkrieg ,

    Everyone in Palestine has been suffering from Israel for literally decades. Nobody needs fake numbers to fight the oppressors.

    WhiteHawk ,

    By that logic, every single person there should be a terrorist. Tell me, are they?

    blitzkrieg ,

    You got it backwards. Palestine people are fighting for their freedom against their oppressors.

    WhiteHawk ,

    Backwards? As opposed to fighting for freedom from people they are oppressing, you mean?

    Sentrovasi ,

    Sorry to be replying so late, (original poster of the post that generated all these comments here) but I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You're right that entire families disappearing probably will get more people to sympathise. That was my original point. Hamas wants innocent Palestinians dead just as much as Israel does. Whether they'll fudge numbers to move that needle up or not is not really important at that point: some people just feel like in the face of that political reality, is it really so unlikely that they'll do so?

    blitzkrieg ,

    According to world organizations, the ministry of health’s numbers were accurate enough before, so they considered it to be reliable.

    However, it is important to emphasize that Israel is bombing civilian buildings and ambulances, because some brain dead people still think Hamas is doing that.

    Also, if we’re gonna argue about how many thousands of innocent civilians and children have died and saying stuff like “It’s not 9000 civilians, it’s actually less”, as if less thousand of civilian casualties is OK, then we lost our humanity.

    Sentrovasi ,

    Feels like you're conflating all the Israel-Hamas issues together. None of that is relevant to what I said (maybe the first sentence is?) and I agree with most of it.

    erranto ,

    When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?

    when is the the fucking humanity going to stand up to this rotten world order ?

    filister ,

    The world long ago has proven to care very little about actual human beings. The world cares only about politics and power, everything is power struggles no matter the human cost.

    Honestly I am sick and disgusted how for example the US is using another conflict for nationalist propaganda, e.g.

    Posting on social media Biden wrote: "Today, thanks to American leadership, we secured safe passage for wounded Palestinians and for foreign nationals to exit Gaza.

    They reiterate that Israel doesn’t have the right to indiscriminately kill civilians, while also vetoing every UN resolution calling for a ceasefire or even a pause to ease the humanitarian situation.

    The world is appalled by 1400 victims, but at the same time turning a blind eye at the human toll on the Palestinian side.

    By the end of this conflict the number of civilian casualties would be much higher, the number of traumatised kids and people, who have lost relatives, and/or roof over their heads would be even higher and this would have solved absolutely nothing as a new wave of desperate people would be pushed into radicalization and hatred towards their oppressor.

    RIP peace and human rights!

    BartsBigBugBag ,

    The world isn’t turning a blind eye, western powers are. Even then, literally everyone in the UN except the US and Israel voted for a ceasefire.

    snek ,
    @snek@lemmy.world avatar

    Yeah but that was sadly only in the General Assembly. Let’s see how they vote at the Security Council.

    Zippit ,

    They won’t. Look at Sebrenica.

    Pohl ,

    Engaging groups like Hamas, isis, or other groups that are highly integrated into the civilian population is ugly business. Hamas is not a conventional state actor with military assets on bases or mobilized for action. It’s uncles and sons and brothers in the homes of family.

    The carnage in Gaza is horrifying, but Hamas isn’t likely to form lines and face the IDF in honorable field combat.

    Removing the threat posed by Hamas will have an absolutely horrific cost in civilian lives. After oct 7, “the world” seems to agree that Israel has some right to remove that threat. Hamas leadership crossed a line, and like all war the cost will primarily be paid by the ordinary people who were unlucky enough to be born in the war zone.

    anteaters ,

    And no one has yet proposed a better way to stop Hamas from firing rockets and prevent another attack on Israel. The only advice people give to Israel is “just stop fighting and die”. The world left Hamas alone to fester in Gaza and now that they hit Israel too hard and their end was decided everyone and his dog cares for the people of Gaza.

    assassinatedbyCIA ,

    Israel is the most powerful military force in the region. They’re not going to die if they stop the fighting. In fact, the current fighting is doing half of hamas’ work for them. Israel is hamas biggest recruiting tool. Peace is the only way to end this conflict.

    anteaters ,

    “Stop fighting, you won’t be driven into the sea, we promise”. There is no peace with Hamas and no one has a solution better solution on how to remove Hamas from Gaza.

    ghostdoggtv ,

    You mean the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is Israel’s final solution?

    Maalus ,

    There is also no peace with Israel. Both sides have violated international treaties. Both sides are horrific in peace. It’s an ongoing war, spanning back more than 70 years. Israel isn’t an innocent party in this conflict.

    Linkerbaan ,
    @Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

    According to this logic the Vietkong should be attacking Americans until this very day.

    Once you stop oppressing people the resistance fighters disappear. Crazy how that works.

    Though bombing super densely populated civilian areas is a close second choice that might work according to America in all its lost wars. let’s see how that works out!

    aniki ,

    deleted_by_author

    •
    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    They tried unilaterally leaving Gaza, look what that got them.

    blitzkrieg ,

    Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing innocent civilians and stealing their homes and lands decades before Hamas was even a thing.

    Aceticon ,

    Hamas is an Insurrection Movement against an occupying power and said occupying power killing more Palestinians is just going to give it more popular support and even more combatants, unless the objective of said occupying power is to “solve” the problem by killing all Palestinians.

    Even putting the morality of the Occupation aside, the correct military way of going about this would be Counter Insurgency, but that means actually listening to and making the lives of Palestinians better, not making it worse sprinkled with random violence against civilians as the Israeli government has consistently done for 7 decades, so the only other military alternative that stands a chance of success is Genocide (i.e. stop the support for the Insurgency by killing or expelling the entire population).

    Pohl ,

    I would never defend Israel’s shitty colonialist behavior over the last 7 decades. A horrible colonialist idea followed by generations of stupid mistakes and vile actions.

    The question was “when is the world going to put a stop to this”. The answer seems to be that “the world” is going to let Israel attempt to dislodge Hamas. Eliminating Hamas is going to be a disgusting bloodbath and probably will just sew the seeds of the next conflict. The alternative is telling the Israeli people that they deserve to having Viking raiders pillaging the borders because the antisemitic leaders of “the greatest generation” picked a pretty horrible solution to what they called “the Jewish question”.

    No good answers, no good guys.

    Aceticon ,

    One problem is that certain countries in said World seem to have picked up the “giving material support to those committing genocide” option, which goes way beyond the more neutral “closing your eyes” option that would seem to be the safest one since - and I agree with you on this - there really are no good options at this point given what’s happenned so far - Israel has really been fucking up the Palestinians but forcing Israel to actually stop doing that and give back the Palestinian Land right now (which is probably not possible) would be rewarding Hamas for its choice of committing terrorist acts and would incentivised them and others to do more of it.

    The second problem is that there are a lot of ways of going about the whole “fighting Hamas” thing and “the world” is not just letting Israel attempt to disloge Hamas but actually letting Israel do it in unnecessarilly bloody ways (the blockade of food and water being a prime example) - even genuine self-defense is not a valid justification for choosing to do it in the way that causes the most suffering to civilians.

    Whilst I agree that there are no good choices, I believe the whole “unwavering support for Israel” choice which has tied certain nations to what is already a Genocide is almost certainly influencing the current Israeli government to feel that they have total impunity and will get away with killing tens or even hundreds of thousands of people for the purpose of triggering what they themselves describe as their objective - a “Second Nakba” - so the choices they are making are immensely worse than those they would be making if they feared repercursion from going too far (this is why I keep blaming western powers such as the US, the UK, France and Germany - the “unwavering” and uncritical nature of their support is what is enabling the Israli leadership to turn a “no good choices” situation into the far more extreme situation which is a Genocide).

    Dreamer ,

    Or that they deserve to die from their own government because they’re better better off dead than being used as bargaining chips to release thousands of Palestinians imprisoned without a just trial.

    blitzkrieg ,

    Israel has been occupying Palestine and killing innocent civilians decades before Hamas was a thing.

    Aceticon ,

    The current Israeli government seems to be Fascist and historically Fascists aren’t exactly known for caring about the lives of “lesser races”, refraining from sacrificing even “their own people” “for the greater good” or once they’re engaged in politics by violent means to stop unless force by an even more powerful force.

    Given that those Fascists have the unwavering support of the US (as well as from countries like France, the UK and Germany), they will likely continue the killings until they achieve what they themselves described as a “Second Nakba”

    Dreamer ,

    Speaking of facism, Zionists tried to recruit Nazis to fight against the British back in mandate Palestine.

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Fascinating, thanks for sharing that. Lehi was classified as a terrorist group by Israel although they were Zionists. As the article states, most Jewish militant groups at the time allied with the UK against Germany, not the other way around.

    Wait until you hear about operation paperclip!

    dustyData ,

    Lehi became Likud, the party of Netanyahu. Currently in power. Their own party members are all over Israeli TV advocating for the genocide of all Palestinians in Gaza and cheering on every bombardment. The number one target of most Jewish militant groups was the British. As they were the authority in mandate Palestine. You are truly ignorant of history.

    DarkGamer , (edited )
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Lehi became Likud

    Interesting, where can I read more about this? Wikipedia says:

    The Likud was formed on 13 September 1973 as a secular party by an alliance of several right-wing parties prior to that year's legislative election—Herut, the Liberal Party, the Free Centre, the National List, and the Movement for Greater Israel.

    Nothing about Lehi.

    the party of Netanyahu. Currently in power. Their own party members are all over Israeli TV advocating for the genocide of all Palestinians in Gaza and cheering on every bombardment.

    I suspect that's hyperbole and they're not literally saying they want genocide, but still, right-wingers gonna right-wing. Assholes, the lot of 'em.

    The number one target of most Jewish militant groups was the British. As they were the authority in mandate Palestine. You are truly ignorant of history.

    From the article my comment was regarding:

    the majority of the Yishuv [the body of Jewish residents in Palestine] ... had abandoned the struggle against the British when World War II broke out to join in fighting their common enemy of Nazi Germany.

    The article goes on at great lengths about how the other militant groups were at odds with Lehi regarding their attempts at alignment with Germany. Who's ignorant?

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    When will the World stop Israel indulging in this Blood thirsty revenge ritual ?

    I suspect it will end when they have achieved safety for themselves. Unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza didn't work, negotiating with Hamas didn't work, perhaps destroying north Gaza, (and I suspect eventually annexing it,) to create distance from this endlessly violent and belligerent territory will keep their population safe from their explicitly genocidal enemy.

    zbyte64 ,
    @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    Israel never should have funded Hamas as a counter balance to the PLO: theintercept.com/…/hamas-israel-palestine-conflic…

    DarkGamer ,
    @DarkGamer@kbin.social avatar

    Yes indeed. In hindsight that seems obvious, but at the time it didn't. Generally speaking divide and conquer is a good strategy against one's opponents so I understand why they tried it. Israel's system of incentives didn't mean much to a radical Islamist enemy who wants to drive them into the sea at all costs. It kind of reminds me of how the US inadvertently created Al Qaeda via the Mujahadeen, which directly led to the 9/11 attacks.

    zbyte64 ,
    @zbyte64@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

    PLO at the time was gaining popularity by pushing for a two state solution. That doesn’t track with “drive them into the sea” narrative of the enemy though.

    itscozydownhere ,
    @itscozydownhere@lemmy.world avatar

    Wasn’t Hamas’ attack a revenge for past stolen land and actions too? They’re the same. Hamas is just stupider because they are weaker and will never win by violence

    skhayfa ,

    It’s the third massive bombing of the refugee camp. On of the most densely populated area of Gaza which is the most densely populate area on earth.

    autotldr Bot ,

    This is the best summary I could come up with:

    GAZA/JERUSALEM, Nov 2 (Reuters) - More foreign nationals prepared to leave the besieged Gaza Strip on Thursday as the enclave’s Hamas-run government said at least 195 Palestinians died in Israel’s attacks on the Jabalia refugee camp, strikes that U.N. human rights officials said could be war crimes.

    Amid growing international calls for a humanitarian pause in hostilities, conditions in the seaside enclave are increasingly desperate under Israel’s assault and tightened blockade.

    Dr. Fathi Abu al-Hassan, a U.S. passport holder waiting to cross into Egypt on Wednesday, described hellish conditions inside Gaza without water, food or shelter.

    Ashraf Al-Qudra, a spokesman for the Gaza health ministry, said in a televised news conference on Thursday that the main power generator at the Indonesian Hospital was no longer functioning due to lack of fuel.

    He plans to meet Israeli officials including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Friday to voice solidarity but also to reassert the need to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, his spokesperson said.

    In Jordan, Blinken will underscore the importance of protecting civilian lives and reiterate a U.S. commitment to ensure Palestinians are not forcibly displaced from Gaza, a growing concern of the Arab world, Miller said.

    The original article contains 851 words, the summary contains 195 words. Saved 77%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

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