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'They've just killed innocent people': Anger in Lebanon after Israeli strike - as teddy bears and children's shoes among rubble

Israeli airstrikes killed dozens of people including two families in both Gaza and Lebanon, while Hezbollah fired a volley of 55 rockets into northern Israel in response.

World leaders urged restraint and tried to frame the ceasefire negotiations as heading in a positive direction.

But in an interview with Sky News, the leader of Hamas in Lebanon told us no progress had been made so far at the talks and the two sides appear to be just as far apart as ever.

Hamas is not at the negotiations but messages and updates have been passed on to them on the sidelines.

frankgrimeszz ,

The children’s shoes were anti-semetic.

Blue0x ,

They belonged to a hamas leader /s

ModernRisk ,
@ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I firmly believe that there won’t be peace as long as Israel exists on Palestinian land. And before people claim random stuff on what I say; sure Israel can exist but not on Palestinian land while genociding the native people. For example, US is their biggest enabler and supporter… So perhaps they can allow Israel to exist within US.

I know, it’s wishful thinking.

Viking_Hippie ,

sure Israel can exist but not on Palestinian land

And not as an ethnostate. No matter which ethnicity is favored, establishing and maintaining an ethnostate necessitates violent oppression and persecution of other ethnicities.

Cephalotrocity ,

I take it you’d support the dismantling of all ethnostates then?

Viking_Hippie ,

Of course. All theocracies too, in case you were planning a “but Arab States” gotcha.

Cephalotrocity ,

So you call for the dismantling of (deep breathe):

Armenia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Latvia, Russia, Serbia, and Turkey in addition to Israel?

Viking_Hippie ,

Yeah, most of those aren’t ethnostates. Besides, it’s the dismantling of the ethnostate form of governing I’m calling for, not the countries misgoverned in such a way.

The only one you mentioned that is INHERENTLY an ethnostate and always has been is Israel.

I’d say nice try, but that was really a pathetic attempt at selling your false equivalence.

Cephalotrocity ,

They are ethnostates. You are not the arbiter of what counts. If a nation has a diaspora, it is an ethnostate and all those listed do. Trying to conceal overt racism behind improperly applied definitions is weak tea.

Viking_Hippie ,

They are ethnostates

While two or more of them are currently under the internal occupation of ultranationalists, none of them are INHERENTLY ethnostates. By your definition India, one of the most diverse countries in the world, would be an ethnostate as well just because the Hindu nationalist party of Modi is currently in charge.

You are not the arbiter of what counts

Right back at you.

If a nation has a diaspora, it is an ethnostate

That’s one of the stupidest things I’ve ever read and I’ve been paying close attention to US politics for decades! 😂

Trying to conceal overt racism behind improperly applied definitions is weak tea.

It’s racist to NOT want ethnostates? As in states that by definition discriminate based on ethnicity? WTF have you been smoking??

To paraphrase your own blather, trying to conceal overt support for systemic discrimination and violence behind improperly applied definitions is weak tea.

CM400 ,

Ethnostate Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

noun

  1. a sovereign state of which citizenship is restricted to members of a particular racial or ethnic group.

    “they actively promoted the concept of a white ethnostate”

Diaspora Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more

di·as·po·ra

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-m&sca_esv=96fa106f89322167&sca_upv=1&sxsrf=ADLYWIKzOSFQlDr5olbED1AlY3cxrmNE9Q:1723982935432&q=how+to+pronounce+diaspora&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoxS3w8sc9YSnDSWtOXmPU5uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLhYglJLcoV4pHi4uJIyUwsLsgvSrRiUWJKzeNZxCqZkV-uUJKvUADUkw_UlKoAUwIA2qkUs1sAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiykNzzwP6HAxU4C0QIHXWQOWsQ3eEDegQIGxAs

noun

  1. the dispersion or spread of a people from their original homeland.

    “the diaspora of boat people from Asia”

    • people who have spread or been dispersed from their homeland.

      “the Latin American diaspora has spread across the United States”

    • the dispersion of the Jewish people beyond Israel.

      "a secular interpretation of Jewish history in antiquity and during the Diaspora

Just going off of what the first google result for those two terms says, I don’t agree with your conclusion that some of those countries are ethnostates. If, however, any or all of them did have a ruling party that included an ethnic background in order to join, then I’d be against that government.

It’s also possible to have a nuanced take on the subject. For example, if ethnostate “A” oppresses and kills members of a different ethnicity, while ethnostate “B” merely oppresses a different ethnicity, one can be against both governments while only being vocal about their opposition to ethnostate “A”, and not necessarily be amoral or hypocritical.

Cephalotrocity ,

It’s obvious you don’t agree otherwise you would not have made your initial statement. Doesn’t make you correct. All those listed are “Sovereign Nations” that identify as having a “people who have spread or been dispersed from their homeland”. Ie.: Ethnostates.

You want to have a nuanced take on the subject? By all means, but, generally calling for the dissolution of all ethnostates is not ‘nuanced’. What you mean to say is “Israeli Ethnostate” which is what I’m calling out.

CM400 ,

You have not demonstrated that simply having citizens that live outside of the confines of their home state means that they come from an ethnostate, and even if it was, pointing that out doesn’t make the problems I (or anyone else) has with what the Israeli government is doing go away; hence the nuance of opposing ethnostates in general. If all the Jews in the world voluntarily moved to Israel, eliminating the diaspora, would that make Israel any less of an ethnostate?

In the case of the Israeli ethnostate, which I believe you are inferring things I have not implied, one can be opposed to the form of government in charge without being opposed to Jews having a country. Israel can exist without apartheid, without stealing land and other property from people of different ethnicities within (and without) their borders, and they can defend themselves without the wholesale slaughter and other human rights violations we’ve seen in the most recent conflict. One can call for a change in leadership positions, the leadership itself, dissolution of the current leadership party, dissolution of the existing governmental structure, anything in between or something else entirely, all while also calling for similar (or different) things from the Palestinian side as well, and in no way does holding one or more of those positions mean that one thinks what happened on October 7th or in any previous conflict between those parties is justified.

As an American, my opinions are obviously biased by our history of doing fucked up things to people that don’t look like those in power, and having participated in society for the last few decades drives home the importance of not including every citizen when condemning the actions of leadership.

What’s happening over there is wrong and it needs to stop, and an international coalition needs to be in charge of investigating everything that has happened and punishing the wrongdoers. Pretend I’m on whatever side you want, that’s what needs to happen.

Cephalotrocity , (edited )

You are confusing state policies with the State makeup and using an absurd version of the definition. The important facet of its definition is the peoples it identifies with are not associated necessarily to citizenship.

When the Russian government blames an invasion on russian peoples (identified solely by their language and culture) being mistreated in other countries they are an Ethnostate. If a nation welcomes its diaspora back and assures their citizenship solely based on their being the same peoples, they are an Ethnostate (most all the other nations I’ve listed) and it is reasonable to see that this definition holds whether they are 100% successful or not.

When you agreed that “All ethnostates should be dismantled” which ones came to your mind?

I’ll only bring this up because you mentioned being American, that the US is actually on the precipice of becoming an Ethnostate based on common rhetoric used in their politics (American is becoming a cultural identity independent of citizenship).

I have not said anything that argues what is happening over their needs to continue. Just that I’d also take issue if you were arguing American Politics is immoral and so democracies need to be dismantled.

Ethnostate - a state that is dominated by members of a single ethnic group (editted in because your oxford link is broken)

Viking_Hippie , (edited )

For example, US is their biggest enabler and supporter… So perhaps they can allow Israel to exist within US.

They can have Oklahoma and Kansas. They’ll have many times as much lebensraum and the ones currently in charge there have proven to not be responsible enough to run a state.

As a bonus, there’s hardly any Muslim-Americans living there now, so evacuating them all to other states of their choosing before Israelis arrive to potentially endanger them should be completely doable!

flicker ,

When I was maybe 10 years old back in the 90s I asked my Dad why we put a bunch of people in a heavily populated area “when Montana is just sitting there empty. I mean, someone uses the land and we get like, taxes and museums and maybe an amusement park, right?”

He seemed genuinely poleaxed.

I still don’t have an answer to this day!

steventhedev ,

So perhaps they can allow Israel to exist within US

It sounds like you’re suggesting ethnically cleansing Jews from the region. How is that any better than suggesting that all Palestinians be moved to Qatar or Iran?

ModernRisk ,
@ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

It sounds like you’re suggesting ethnically cleansing Jews from the region. How is that any better than suggesting that all Palestinians be moved to Qatar or Iran?

It sounds like you’re trying to “gotcha” and twists my message/ word thing and I’m not going to take that bait. I’ll block you and if someone else has an actual argument without trying to these bait stuff I’ll respond.

steventhedev ,

You got me. I was trying to bait you into saying that ethnic cleansing is obviously a bad thing and we should apply a consistent standard to avoid dehumanizing rhetoric.

MediaBiasFactChecker Bot ,

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