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German court convicts activist for leading ‘from the river to the sea’ chant

A Berlin court has convicted a pro-Palestinian activist of condoning a crime for leading a chant of the slogan “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” at a rally in the German capital four days after the Hamas attacks on Israel, in what her defence team called a defeat for free speech.

The presiding judge, Birgit Balzer, ordered 22-year-old German-Iranian national Ava Moayeri to pay a €600 (£515) fine on Tuesday, rejecting her argument that she meant only to express support for “peace and justice” in the Middle East by calling out the phrase on a busy street.

Balzer said she “could not comprehend” the logic of previous German court rulings that determined the saying was “ambiguous”, saying to her it was clear it “denied the right of the state of Israel to exist”.

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Eldritch ,

People 100% do use it both ways. That the court convicted and fined them without showing which one it actually was. And rejecting their defense stating that it wasn’t intended in that way. Is very troubling.

It’s absolutely plain to see that Germany is erring too far in a different direction so it’s not seen as attacking Jewish populations in any way. But as a result they are helping push back other vulnerable populations. I don’t think it’s the good look they’re hoping it was.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Using it both ways should not be a problem regardless.

There is nothing wrong with being against a less than 100 year old settler state that’s actively engaging in genocide. The land and the people do not have to be under the jurisdiction of a racist ethnostate.

What would actually help is not continuing to conflate Israel with Judaism.

steventhedev ,

calling for the destruction of a country is never ok, and is always a problem

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

A country is simply a line on a map ruled by a government. They are not infallible beings that we must bow before in reverence.

What sort of person would call for the continuation of say North Korea?

PP_BOY_ ,
@PP_BOY_@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, way too many western countries have knee-jerked the opposite direction so hard that they’re willing to support another Holocaust, albeit against a different minority.

Aceticon , (edited )

It’s State racism.

Racism isn’t just picking on some ethnicities and attacking those who are members of it, it’s also deeming some ethnicities and their members as special and deserving of superior treatment versus others: back in the day they were openly NAZI the German state deemed the Arian Race as special and criticism of it AND OF THOSE WHO SELF-PROCLAIMED TO REPRESENT IT (the NAZIs themselves then, same as the Zionists do now for Jewish ethnicity) as a crime.

Ever since Israel has started the most genocidal stage of their destruction of Palestinians, Germany has progressivelly uncovered a mindset of racism and authoritarianism with far too many parallels with their “old ways” only this time around it’s a different “superior race” and it’s a different group of ethno-Fascists that is illegal to criticise.

That the mental and moral posture of old is still alive and well even IN DEFENSE OF EXTREME GENOCIDE - even if now the beneficiaries are a different group of murderous ethno-Fascists claiming to represent a different ethnicity than last time around - is genuinely alarming for me as an European: if now Germany puts ethnicity above Humanitarianism even in the face of Genocide, accepts the same old logic as the NAZIs used from ethno-Fascists that they represent a whole ethnicity and uses the law to silence criticism of that Genocide and those ethno-Fascists, they will likely do it again, and next time around the victims of the genocidal ethno-Fascist that Germany supports might be a lot closer to home than Gaza.

Atin ,

Both ways? It is unambiguously a call for genocide.

SmoothOperator ,

How is that?

Eldritch ,

Do you have any facts to back that claim up? Because I’ve heard a number of people say it without that intention. It absolutely can be ambiguous. You would need evidence of a person’s actions outside the claims to understand whether or not it was intended that way. But that’s not what you’re advocating for.

unmagical ,

Why must it be evaluated in the context of “the biggest massacre of Jews since the Shoah” and not “the biggest massacre of Palestinians since the Nakba?”

alvvayson ,

Free speech in Germany is dead.

That said, if I were in Germany, I would use a different phrase. Maybe “stop the genocide in Gaza, ceasefire now”.

That would just be way more effective in actually rallying support.

But I’m not in Germany, so Free Palestine, from the river to the sea.

Aceticon ,

Good old Germany, going back to the days of the State deeming some races as superior and having special laws to punish and silence those critical of the actions, no matter how murderous, of those the German State has deemed to represent a superior race.

You can take the NAZIsm out of Germany but you can’t take the profound racism and the authoritaristic tendencies out of the heart of the German Power Elites.

Mrkawfee ,

The only thing the Germans learnt from the Holocaust is that the Jews are entitled to carry out their very own Holocaust.

Aceticon ,

The non-racist lesson they could have taken from the Holocaust is: “Never again shall be this be done to anybody”

Instead the German elites (who, remember, were brought up in the very same time and environment as the NAZIs, with for certain many who quietly sympathized with some NAZI views) very openly chose for their country to learn a different lesson, one that preserves the Racist view of Human Beings: “Never again shall Germans do this to Jews”

This “lesson” in Racist format then anchors the utterly immoral and anti-Humanist idea that for Germans a Genocide is unimportant if not done by actual Germans and if done by people claiming to represent Jews, then Germany has a moral obligation to support them.

The Humanist version of the lesson, on the other hand, is wholly incompatible with closing one’s eyes to Genocide, much less to supporting those committing Genocide, no matter what the ethnicity of the mass murderers or their victims.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@quokk.au avatar

Nazi Germany never went away it seems.

AmidFuror ,

Except these kinds of regulations on free speech are mainly targeted at Nazism.

lolcatnip ,

Evidently not.

Mrkawfee ,

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. German wankers.

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/06/german-court-due-to-rule-on-from-the-river-to-the-sea-case-in-test-of-free-speech

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AllNewTypeFace ,
@AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space avatar

That’s not an entirely unreasonable decision. The slogan is not one of peaceful coexistence but of maximalist territorial claims. It was a supremacist slogan when the Zionists coined it, and remains one when appropriated by the other side.

lolcatnip ,

How many other countries can you be fined for supposedly threatening?

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