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Germany shuts down Islamic Center Hamburg

The Islamic Center Hamburg (IZH) was under investigation for several months over its alleged support for Lebanon’s Hezbollah group which is backed by Iran. Hezbollah is classified as a terrorist group by Germany.

German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said on Wednesday that the Islamic Center Hamburg (IZH) would be banned for propagating extremism and that its famous “Blue Mosque” was being searched by police.

“It is very important to me to make a clear distinction here: we are not acting against a religion,” Faeser said, but just against a group accused of undermining the German state as well as women’s rights.

The Imam Ali Mosque, known locally as the Blue Mosque, is one of Germany’s oldest mosques and is operated by the IZH.

febra , (edited )

Before going into this, don’t get me wrong, I’m definitely not supporting religious indoctrination of any sorts and think that any institution doing that should be closed down, BUT, there’s some nuance to this case.

It’s a bit sad (but completely unsurprising) that DW has left out the nuance in this situation here. I think it’s extremely worrying that the politically appointed ministers in Germany can issue such orders. Yes, she’s saying that there was an investigation into it, but it wasn’t published anywhere. No one can take a look at those files. Most importantly, there was no court order in this decision. And this is where my worries begin. Sure, the mosque can decide to challenge this decision in court (and if there is proper evidence the order will stand) but it’s a bit worrying that politically appointed ministers can just sign orders and decisions as this one without a proper court case to go with it.

Maybe two, three years ago I wouldn’t have said much about this, or I would’ve even supported the state, but seeing the German state over the last year go crazy with such orders, many of which ended up being overturned in court, makes me wonder why these decisions don’t go through courts in the first place. Why do ministers get free reign like little dictators to sign away orders as they please?

barsoap , (edited )

I think it’s extremely worrying that the politically appointed ministers in Germany can issue such orders.

§3 VereinsG. It’s not ministers which do it, but ministries. Huge difference. They’re shutting down associations with the same kind of authority and procedure as they’re shutting down restaurants which fail to adhere to hygiene standards, and in the same way: Based on established rules and procedures which are based in law. As a minister, you can’t just say “hey close that restaurant there I don’t like their food”, that’s not how it works. Best you can do is “hey that restaurant over there, have a look at it”. Also this is a co-decision of the federal and Hamburg’s ministry of the interior.

No one can take a look at those files

Here’s the announcement part, the explanatory statement is not public, if you want to get it you can ask the IZH they got a copy.

I might be mistaken but I don’t think they’re even confidential, they’re just not automatically published. It might be as simple as sending a freedom of information request.

As you can notice the thing isn’t even signed by the minister, but a civil servant.

Maybe two, three years ago I wouldn’t have said much about this, or I would’ve even supported the state, but seeing the German state over the last year go crazy with such orders,

Oh my. Hamburg wanted the thing outlawed for ages, they’ve had a very keen eye on all kinds of Islamists ever since 9/11 (remember where Muhammed Atta studied?) but as the IZH is not only active in Hamburg but also other states they couldn’t do it on their own, the federation needed to move. And they took their sweet time, only ever starting to get moving about two years ago after the crackdown on protests in Iran (the IZH is Iran-affiliated).

In case you’re mildly conspiracy-minded, really more smart political strategy and not conspiracy: Increased vigour and urgency could have something to do with the looming AfD ban: They’re intent on getting all the Islamists etc. they have in the pipeline banned to avoid certain conspiracy narratives Nazis would no doubt start to spin. Great replacement theory BS.

…and yes that kind of prioritisation is something a minister can do. “Put the Hell’s Angels on the back burner for now and focus getting the paperwork for the Islamists done” is within their power.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

Uh... Okay.... Not surprised, just disappointed.

alcoholicorn ,

We are not acting against a religion, we’re acting against a group undermining our support of genocide.

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Israel and Hezbollah can both be bad at the same time

alcoholicorn ,

Sure. Weird how the people the German government wants to suppress to just happen to be bad people trying to take away women’s rights in Germany. I’m sure it’s entirely unrelated.

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Maybe it’s because I’m not done with my coffee but I’m not picking up what you’re putting down.

alcoholicorn ,

This is motivated by politics and islamophobia, no different than NYPD building a bunch of bullshit cases against muslims after 9/11.

We’re talking about a country that considers “from the river to the sea” to be hate speech and requires new citizens affirm their support of a genocidal settler colonial project.

RidderSport ,
@RidderSport@feddit.org avatar

Wait till you hear about countries closing linguistic institutions for being spy agencies.

VirtualOdour ,

Seems like a good cover for a spy agency tbh

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

The German authorities claim they have proof of the connection between the IZH and Hezbollah. If they do have the proof, which they now under obligation to provide of course, it is not politics and Islamophobia, it is doing what the law requires.

Now you may think the law should require doing similar things to such organizations aiding Israel. I wouldn’t disagree. But that doesn’t mean you let other organizations that aid a different group that commits atrocities and want a theocracy just because they’re fighting Israel out of some sense of fairness.

WanderingVentra ,

Eh, I disagree. If they keep supporting Israel after this, it demonstrates that they are hypocritical. They are not following the law for its own sake, but as a cudgel, to bludgeon organizations they don’t like while supporting genocidal organizations they do like. And considering they are suppressing groups that directly oppose Israel, not just Muslim ones lately but also anti-Zionist Jewish ones, it becomes even more obvious. If you’re just picking and choosing which cultural groups to suppress, and purposefully letting the imperialist, colonialist Western backed, apartheid ethnostate-based ones through, even with the backing of the law, then you’re just kind of leaning into the targeted scapegoating of fascism.

Not to say that’s definitely what this is, we haven’t seen the investigation evidence yet, but Germany has been leaning into that direction lately.

barsoap ,

If they keep supporting Israel after this,

Ever looked at recent weapons exports to Israel? Or rather their absence? The federation is not granting permission for anything but general military goods (helmets, vests, etc). Only reasonable legal reasoning behind it is that the government thinks that they could be used in a genocide, to commit war crimes, such things.

That is: They’re not saying it openly but the German federal government absolutely shit-binned Netanyahu and his Kahanites as genocidal maniacs. Also if we were still exporting weapons Germany’s streets would be way less calm right now.

Diplomatically speaking, Germany would very much rather sit this one out, and is silently hoping for non-fascists to come to power in Israel, again. People who then can at least be encouraged to restart the peace process. Because one thing’s for sure: There’s no Israeli security without Palestinian freedom, and there also isn’t Palestinian freedom without Israeli security. The two things depend on each other. Germany always understood this, and still does: That supporting Israel means supporting Palestine. The non-fascists on both sides, that is.

FlyingSquid ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

I wish more people understood this. It’s like the people cheering on the Houthis, who use child soldiers and have been responsible for the deaths of thousands of them.

Just because they are fighting Israel does not necessarily make them the good guys.

autonomoususer , (edited )

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Sorry… my own children have to be killed for me to find recruiting child soldiers to be a bad thing?

    autonomoususer , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Please clarify this for me: Are you saying that it is good that the Houthis are using child soldiers?

    autonomoususer , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    That is not an answer. I will clarify, and give you one more chance to answer a yes or no question: Are you justifying the Houthis’ use of child soldiers which is, under no shadow of a doubt, a war crime, even in internal conflicts?

    casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/child-soldiers

    autonomoususer , (edited )

    deleted_by_author

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    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    A moderator who is deciding whether or not you get to stay here. Now, please answer the question.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    I see you deleted your response. Which should have been a yes or a no. If you do not answer, I will take that as a yes.

    Edit: I see you decided to flag me instead. Time for you to go.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Cheering on the Houthis because they are protecting their people from Saudi Arabia and America. The people responsible for their deaths are the ones dropping bombs on the children.

    Once Saudi Arabia isn’t dropping American bombs on Yemeni school buses, then I can criticize the Houthis.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Are you justifying the use of child soldiers? It is a war crime.

    alcoholicorn ,

    I am against the use of child soldiers, but I’m not going to talk about the Houthi’s because our criticism of the Houthi’s can have no effect on whether they use child soldiers, but it does have effect of supporting western action against them, which includes induced famine and bombing schools and hospitals.

    You see how blatant it is when Israelis talk about LGBT+ rights in Gaza as if gays are immune to Israeli bombs. It’s no different pretending to care about children in Yemen while bombing and starving those same Yemeni children.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    This is about whether the Houthis are a good group or not.

    So you are arguing that a group that commits war crimes is good as long as they are fighting Israel and Saudi Arabia. Correct?

    alcoholicorn ,

    You understand that Israel and Saudi Arabia are committing far, far worse war crime here?

    Resisting annihilation is good. I’m making no statements on whether the group would be good in a vacuum because that’s not useful for anything except justifying even greater war crimes.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    They are not committing war crimes in a vacuum. They are committing war crimes right now. Those war crimes involve killing thousands of children.

    I will give you one more chance, as a moderator, to clarify your position. Not with whatabouts, not with whether or not some of what they are doing is good.

    Are they good? Yes or no.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Are they good? Yes or no.

    Such a simple evaluation misses context and nuance.

    But no, they’re not good, but they’re infinitely better than the guys dropping bombs my country supplies on their schools.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you, then we are in agreement. But I don’t think whatabouts are necessary. Two bad groups can fight each other and the outcome can be a good thing regardless.

    Consider: Stalin fought Hitler and Hitler would not have been defeated without him. That doesn’t make Stalin a good guy. He was also a mass-murderer. It meant he was necessary to defeat another bad guy.

    alcoholicorn ,

    Weird how you point at Stalin’s poor handling of a wide-spread drought, instead of Churchill deliberately engineering a famine in Bengal.

    Like if you want an unambiguously evil man who happened to do a good thing, Churchill is right there, same time period and numbers, and doesn’t even have the excuse of crop failures and social unrest.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Okay, sure, Churchill was horrible as well. I’m not sure what your point is now.

    alcoholicorn ,

    The western bias; you don’t demand random people say Churchill was bad, you don’t demand random people say Israel is bad, only enemies of the west.

    FlyingSquid ,
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    Dude, I had to pick a mass murderer that fought another mass murderer and I picked one. I’m sorry I didn’t pick the specific mass murderer who fought another mass murderer you wanted me to pick out of the ones I could have picked.

    It doesn’t change the fact that using child soldiers does not make you the good guys. Quite the opposite.

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