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Buddahriffic ,

Shouldn’t they have done this like a month or two ago?

assassinatedbyCIA ,

You know how some days you come back home from a long hard day of work and you don’t want to do anything cause you’re tired so you order delivery. Yeah, imagine having little food, little water, being bombed constantly, being forced to move constantly, having the areas you move to be bombed, fearing for your life constantly and to top it all off the force that is doing this ask you to start a manhunt for some people. This is a sick joke.

badbytes ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/3ee4ad05-2726-455e-a408-8c9738348c94.jpeg

Brunbrun6766 ,
@Brunbrun6766@lemmy.world avatar

Have they checked under the rubble of all the buildings they’ve destroyed? We already know they’ve killed their own before, and that the hostages themselves said that’s something they feared was being killed by the IDFs bombs

blahsay ,

Seems pretty sensible. Hamas dismantled and hostages home is Israel’s goal so getting them back would pretty much end the war at this point.

wahming ,

Right, Netanyahu?

…

Right?

speaker_hat ,

As long as this war doesn’t end, more casualties from both sides occur.

streetfestival ,
@streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

Israeli HQ ordered troops to shoot Israeli captives on 7 October

streetfestival ,
@streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

This may be an effort to re-assert control over the narrative after a story was published in the Israeli publication Yedioth Ahronoth on January 12th: w.ynet.co.il/yediot/7-days/time-of-darkness (the publisher has not yet translated it to English).

But here is an English translation: electronicintifada.net/…/israeli-hq-ordered-troop…

From electronicintifada.net/…/israeli-hq-ordered-troop…:

At midday on 7 October Israel’s supreme military command ordered all units to prevent the capture of Israeli citizens “at any cost” – even by firing on them.

The military “instructed all its fighting units to perform the Hannibal Directive in practice, although it did so without stating that name explicitly,” Israeli journalists revealed last weekend.

Warning: This is emotionally disturbing content. It is well-sourced by Israeli civilians and military personnel. I think it may be a sign that the propaganda machine concealing the IDF’s war crimes is starting to crack. Our understanding of what’s happened over the last several months may be very different a year from now

SeaJ ,

I’m sure that will be to priority instead of trying to save their own lives. /s

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

"I know we're killing you right now, but could you help us save a handful of our people, who we'd like to let live? Thanks."

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

" We just want to evacuate them as soon as possible. Then we can kill you even more brutally"

speaker_hat ,

More like “We know Hamas destroys you, we want to help you destroy Hams and also help us to find the hostages”

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, how dare Hamas destroy Palestinians? Quite clearly, Israel regards that as their job!

speaker_hat ,

Gaza is plagued by poverty, but Hamas has no shortage of cash. Where does it come from?

Source: nbcnews.com/…/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-short…

Hamas has no intention to make the Palestinians to prosper, they only want to destroy Israel and undo the what so called “Nakba”, per their 2017 Hamas charter:

archive.org/details/hamas-charter-2017

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yes, and?

That doesn't change the fact that Israel's clear intent is not to surgically root out Hamas, but to indiscriminately bomb Gazans in the name of Lebensraum.

Hamas being a bunch of terrorist shitheads doesn't absolve Israel.

autotldr Bot ,

This is the best summary I could come up with:

Israeli forces have dropped leaflets in Gaza asking residents for help finding hostages taken by Hamas on October 7, as bombardment of the besieged strip continues.

The leaflets dropped in Rafah, in the south of the Gaza strip, on Saturday featured photos of 33 hostages with their names written in Arabic.

“They are asking people’s help because they are unable to get to their hostages because of the resistance,” Abu Ali, a north Gaza resident, told Reuters.

Meanwhile, more than 25,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel began its aerial bombardment campaign and ground invasion, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its death toll but says around two-thirds of those killed were women and children, which is supported by United Nations estimates.

Several families camped outside one of Netanyahu’s residences on Friday night to protest what they described as government inaction to free their captured relatives.

The original article contains 312 words, the summary contains 156 words. Saved 50%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!

i_have_no_enemies OP ,

can we really trust hamass death toll of civilians?

INeverSaid ,

Meanwhile, more than 25,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel began its aerial bombardment campaign and ground invasion, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.

The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its death toll but says around two-thirds of those killed were women and children, which is supported by United Nations estimates.

which is supported by United Nations estimates.

speaker_hat ,

The ministry does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its death toll

So this is not a reliable source.

cosmicrookie ,
@cosmicrookie@lemmy.world avatar

Their numbers have usually aligned pretty well with NGOs estimations and are generally accepted as more or less trustworthy.

Arete ,

For total count maybe, but they have never made a distinction between their own soldiers and civilians. They want the 25k number misinterpreted as a civilian death count, and have largely succeeded.

FishFace ,

Most of the death toll is women and children (7k and 10k, respectively). Even if you assume all men killed are Hamas fighters, which is not true, that is very high when compared to the attack which triggered the war.

Arete ,

I agree the civilian death toll is outsized, but just to play Devil’s advocate here: Hamas is the group putting out the women and children numbers, and given they don’t make a civilian/soldier distinction they almost certainly are including all soldiers under 18 in the “children” numbers. They want you to picture 10k murdered 6-year-olds, but we don’t actually have a break down by age or child-soldier status. Hopefully we can get some visibility there soon.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

They’re not just putting out numbers, they’re putting out identifications too. Unless they’re falsely claiming identified women and children are dead, they can’t really manipulate the numbers.

Also, as another counter point, the numbers are just the people they’ve identified. Thousands more are missing and presumed buried under the rubble, likely dead or dying. The death toll is necessarily an under-count, and might be closer to 30,000 rather than 25,000. Also? There’s around 10 children getting limbs amputated every day, as well as dozens more being severely lacerated and burned. Daily. The death toll isn’t the whole story, but there’s absolutely no way that you can spin this as Hamas just using the fog of war to create confusion.

Arete ,

Not disputing any of that except for your conclusion. Hamas lumping their military losses in with civilians is literally using the fog of war to create confusion.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

The UN has been very clear about the rights of the child, and child soldiers are universally classified as victims regardless of whether they are armed or affiliated with a militant group. Israel isn’t actually allowed to carpet bomb child soldiers under international law.

Stop trying to frame this as the health administration trying to create confusion. Children are classified as civilians, period.

Also, wanna know something extremely fucked up? Half of Gaza’s population is under 18 and 70% of the population are under 30. The fact that Hamas uses child soldiers is shaped by the fact that Israel created conditions where boys can’t expect to live long enough to even become men.

And now they’re just killing the boys.

Arete ,

You do see how Hamas employing child soldiers and then lumping them in with dead civilian numbers to generate outrage is deceptive though, right? Because that was my point.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s literally not deceptive because child soldiers are civilians under international law. Extra clarification isn’t necessary.

Hamas is doing nothing wrong by not identifying dead children as legitimate military targets, because they never are.

Arete ,

That’s an insane take and I think you know that. Let’s end this discussion here.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s insane that you think child soldiers are legitimate military targets.

We should end this discussion before I say something that gets me banned lol

Arete ,

Child soldiers are legitimate military targets the second they pose a military threat. That’s awful, but how war works. Have a nice day.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

That’s literally not how it works under international law but okay, whatever

Arete ,

I just did a fairly deep dive on this because it would be a horrible thing to argue about without a full understanding. You’re incorrect - a child soldier is a combatant under every relevant international law I could find, from the Geneva convention onwards. Further, there have been numerous horrific cases of soldiers having to shoot armed children, none of which has been labeled a war crime.

A particularly concise quote from the European journal of international law:

The starting points are articles 4(A) of the 1949 Third Geneva Convention and article 43 of the 1977 Additional Protocol I, which provides for the definitional elements of what a combatant is under international humanitarian law, albeit overtly in the context of an international armed conflict. If a child is enrolled in the armed forces of a party to an international armed conflict, there seems to be no apparent basis in current international humanitarian law to characterize that child as anything other than as a combatant.

streetfestival ,
@streetfestival@lemmy.ca avatar

I just did a fairly deep dive on this because it would be a horrible thing to argue about without a full understanding. You’re incorrect - a child soldier is a combatant under every relevant international law I could find, from the Geneva convention onwards.

I don’t think ‘child soldiers are regular combatants’ is actually the open and shut case you present it to be. I think the following is a more accurate portrayal of things (2016) - rsc-src.ca/en/voices/targeting-child-soldiers:

Despite the numerous volume on child soldiers in legal literature over the last few decades, very little has been said on targeting child soldiers. It seems to be something international lawyers would rather not talk about. The fact that legal literature doesn’t say much about targeting child soldiers doesn’t mean that no such practice exists, or that soldiers haven’t discussed the matter.

Arete ,

Agreed, I went through that doc. It indicates that Canada is one of the few countries to affirm a “shoot first” policy. Most other countries don’t explicitly have a policy given the subject. The assertion being made above was that child soldiers are never a legitimate target or combatant under international law. That person was incorrect.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Okay this is actually something concrete to talk about. This is from the UN Human Rights Committee

  1. The Committee takes note of the efforts made by the State party to prevent children from being used or recruited by illegal armed groups and to separate those who have been recruited from those groups and offer them assistance and protection. It is concerned, however, at reports of the continued use and recruitment of children by illegal armed groups, including, in particular, the use and recruitment of indigenous and Afro-Colombian children, and by illegal armed groups that formed in the wake of the demobilization of paramilitary organizations. The Committee takes note of the State party’s statement that, in accordance with the laws in force, security forces do not engage in intelligence activities or military civic acts that involve children. It is concerned, however, by reports of cases in which members of the security forces allegedly involved children in such activities during the reporting period (art. 24).

Has Israel made any efforts, at all, to prevent children from being used or recruited in this conflict? I don’t think they have, aside from blowing them away once they have been recruited (if they are even differentiating between combatants and civilians - I doubt it).

  1. The State party should continue and step up its efforts to prevent the use and recruitment of children by illegal armed groups; to ensure that, in accordance with the jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court, all children who have been used or recruited by such groups are treated as victims, regardless of which armed group they have been separated from; to ensure that all children separated from such groups receive protection and proper care with a view to their physical and psychological recovery and to the restoration of their rights; and to ensure that the responsible parties stand trial and are punished. The State party should also adopt effective measures to ensure that, in actual practice, children are not involved in intelligence work or in military civic activities.

Israel has certainly never made any efforts to separate children from Hamas and protect them from recruitment. Israel neither has ever made any efforts to rehabilitate or re-socialize child soldiers that it has captured, and it rarely bothers with capturing them alive.

It is unclear if children are to be considered victims before separation, so point to you. Under a strictly textualist interpretation, international law doesn’t protect active child soldiers. That is not the only way to interpret law; I’d argue we should look at the purpose of the law i.e. to protect children from war, so every effort should be made to avoid killing children except when absolutely necessary.

But that’s for the ICJ and ICC to decide, not lemmings. So! Point to you, child soldiers that die on the battle field could be counted as combatants. I disagree and don’t think that’s the end of it, but I can see that as a valid interpretation of humanitarian law.

But! Once they’re dying in the hospital it’s pretty clear to me that they have been separated from Hamas, at which point they must be considered victims. Victims that Israel is blockading from food, fuel, medicine, sanitation, habitation, and humanitarian assistance.

I’m also highly skeptical that Israel really is targeting militants and I’m done giving them the benefit of the doubt. You understand, right?

Arete ,

Hey that was an excellent response and I appreciate it - good faith arguments are few and far between here. To your points I disagree with one and agree with one.

I don’t think Israel has any responsibility in preventing Hamas from recruiting child soldiers. If it was an internal terrorist group under Israel’s jurisdiction, my opinion would flip. As an example, the US is responsible for preventing the Proud Boys from recruiting children, but are not responsible for Mexican cartels doing so.

To your second point, Israel absolutely is required to treat child soldiers as victims from the moment they are captured, surrender, or are meaningfully “separated” from Hamas. I haven’t seen any evidence of this and personally doubt they are doing so. If we discover minors being interrogated in POW camps, that’s going to be a huge problem.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

. If it was an internal terrorist group under Israel’s jurisdiction, my opinion would flip.

Palestinians are not sovereign so I think that means they are under Israel’s jurisdiction. Gaza is a ghetto under Israel’s control and Israel doesn’t even recognize Hamas as a government, so that goes doubly for them.

. If we discover minors being interrogated in POW camps, that’s going to be a huge problem.

It’s something that was going on before this latest flare-up in the conflict and wrt recent months they have dramatically increased arbitrary arrests.

I won’t be surprised if more evidence is uncovered by the ICJ or ICC in the coming months.

Arete ,

Just speaking to your first point, prior to the invasion Israel was not in control of or administering Gaza. They had withdrawn 20 years prior and Gaza was operating independently albeit subject to blockades and trade interference. That’s why we call it an invasion - they’re literally at war to gain control. I don’t think it’s fair to hold Israel responsible for policing Hamas’s internal recruitment policies during that period.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Israel had a records of all births, deaths, where people live, what jobs they have, and intimate knowledge of their personal relationships and politics. They controlled all imports and exports, to such a degree that they restricted the amount of food flowing into Gaza by counting the amount of calories needed to sustain the population. They control fuel, water, electricity, waste, travel, communications, everything.

Gaza has always been a ghetto, and just because the ghetto is self-administrated doesn’t mean it is sovereign.

I think it is entirely fair to hold Israel accountable for a ghetto that exists almost entirely within its borders.

Arete ,

I actually dispute a lot of that, but I think we can distill this down to a simple question: In your opinion, could Israel stop Hamas from recruiting children without a full-scale war? If not, I think that settles both the sovereignty and responsibility questions.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I believe they could, because if Israel stopped victimizing people in Gaza then Hamas wouldn’t be able to recruit in the first place.

That means ending their superexploitation of Palestinian labor, ending their import controls over Gaza’s essential supplies, and by ending the racist apartheid system within Israel. People join Hamas to fight Israel. If Israel stopped giving them reasons to fight, they would stop.

Arete ,

It sounds like you’d hold Israel responsible for anything Hamas does because you feel Hamas is reacting to Israel’s actions. This implicitly justifies all of Hamas’s actions as “rightful” resistance. I think this both infantilizes Hamas and provides cover for them to do literally anything. If they nuked Paris, is that also Israel’s fault? Is there maybe a middle ground where a group can simultaneously be oppressed and responsible for their own actions?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

The middle ground is “Israel shares responsibility for everything Hamas does because Israel created the conditions for Hamas.” Hamas has agency, of course, so that isn’t a free pass for Hamas to do anything without any responsibility. That shared responsibility does implicate Israel in everything Hamas does, because settlers are always responsible for the blowback they create.

Arete ,

I can accept that as we move backwards from effect to cause we can aggregate some level of responsibility, but where does that end? Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible? To what extent is Hitler responsible? Or the Moorish invasion of Spain? Ultimately I guess we end up back in Egypt and it’s the Pharaoh’s fault?

Ultimately Hamas (and the Palestinian people, separately) are making choices and actions that are either appropriate or inappropriate to their situation. I don’t find the use of child soldiers (and historically, child suicide bombers) to be a reasonable response, and so I don’t hold Israel responsible.

And just to show that I am in fact operating in good faith here, I think the great match of return was an appropriate response, and hold Israel responsible for the resulting deaths.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Israel wouldn’t exist without the British, so are they responsible?

Yes, but not just because the British mandate was how the land was stolen in the first place, but Britain today supports Israel’s genocide.

To what extent is Hitler responsible?

He’s dead so that’s kind of irrelevant, but did you know Zionists were Nazi collaborators? The worked with the Nazis to migrate German Jews to Palestine.

Or the Moorish invasion of Spain?

I think you missed my point.

This isn’t about historical guilt, it’s about the active and ongoing role Israel plays in the conditions that helps Hamas recruit children. Every time Israel kills an entire child’s family, which happens constantly by the way, they’ve just created another lifelong supporter of Hamas that is ripe for recruitment.

That’s how blowback works! It’s not some historical karma that’s coming back onto Israel, it’s their active oppression that does the seeds of resistance.

And this current phase of the genocide will only make Hamas stronger. Israel can not win.

Arete ,

Regarding Israel not being responsible for “unreasonable” actions by Hamas, do you have a position? Was recruiting child soldiers a reasonable course of action pre-invasion?

queermunist , (edited )
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

Context is required to understand Hamas. Half of Gaza’s population is under 18, and for comparison Israel’s under 18 population is close to 1/3rd and the US’s under 18 population is close to 1/4th. Why the disparity? Because Israel has a policy of “mowing the grass” and killing off the surplus adult male population. So actually, yes, I think Hamas’s use of child soldiers is an understandable response to Israel killing off adult men. “Reasonable” may push it too far, but that’s irrelevant.

I didn’t say Israel does not share responsibility for unreasonable actions by Hamas. I said Israel shares all responsibility for everything Hamas does, not that Israel gets a free pass just because Hamas does something unreasonable. Israel is responsible for the blowback it creates, because this shit would not happen if Israel was not exploiting and oppressing and killing Palestinians.

Remember that those are fathers and uncles and brothers that Israel is killing. Again, that’s how blowback works. Israel creates the next generation of child soldiers that dedicate their lives to fighting back. They’re pushed to these extremes by Israel. Blowback. Does that make it reasonable? I don’t think that’s even my place to say, only Palestinians can decide that.

Arete ,

Do you have any evidence that Gaza’s population is young because Israel is killing off the adult population? Just thinking about it, the numbers don’t seem anywhere close to adding up. There’s 2.3 million people, half of which are minors. To make that 1/3, Israel would have had to kill 1.1 million adults over the past generation.

My understanding of “Mowing the grass” is knocking out military and trade infrastructure, not genocide.

On the contrary, it looks like Gaza is so young because their population has doubled in the past 20 years. Gazans are just having shitloads of children. If my math and data are right, does this change your view on the reasonableness of using child soldiers?

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

The fertility rate is high, but you’re not considering the negative net migration rate out of Gaza due to the unbearable conditions the people within Gaza have to live under. Under 18 the majority are male, over 18 the majority are female. The young male population shrinks from migration, imprisonment, and death.

Also, I literally said I’m not making claims to reasonableness and also that reasonableness is irrelevant anyway. Why are you harping on this?

Arete ,

I’m harping on it because I think reasonableness is the clear line around which we can assign blame. A group is generally not responsible for reasonable actions taken given their conditions. If you want to blame Hamas’s tactics on Israel, I think you need to show that they are reasonable tactics.

Unless you can show me where 1 million Palestinians were killed/imprisoned/migrated over the past 20 years, I think it’s pretty clear cut that half the population are children because the population just doubled.

Regarding male/female, the ratio you have is totally normal. Male babies are favored, but men lead wildly riskier lives and die younger than women.

I’m not seeing any evidence that Israel has meaningfully affected the population statistics of Gaza over the past generation.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

I’m uninterested in assigning blame in a moralistic black and white way. I think Israel shares responsibility. The UN certainly thought so in the case of Colombia, which I previously quoted. The use of child soldiers by non-state actors still is the responsibility of the state.

As for the male/female longevity argument, let’s look at Israel:

0-14 years: male 1,200,721/female 1,146,556

15-64 years: male 2,839,124/female 2,737,054

That same radical drop off in the male population does not exist in Israel, males outnumber females in both age cohorts. That male/female longevity divergence kicks in after 65, which is why the CIA fact book separates those age cohorts.

Something else is going on.

ZombiFrancis ,

Sometimes there isn’t a point worth making to someone with a position not worth holding. They’re just wasting your time.

queermunist ,
@queermunist@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s not like my time is valuable lol

Also, I find articulating my opinions actually makes them better. Often these are just angry thoughts buzzing around in my head, so writing them all out like this helps me focus my ideas. Don’t worry, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything when I argue on the internet.

kbotc ,

Israel created conditions where boys can’t expect to live long enough?

That’s an insane take on Hamas preventing women from gainful employment or education and turning them into baby factories. The reason there’s so many children is because the population literally doubled in 24 years, and you only get population growth stats like those when you have uneducated women who can only have children and do no other function in society.

Killing_Spark ,

I mean pretty much everyone in Gaza is without employment. Wasn’t the unemployment rate around 75% before October 7th? That’s just what happens if you block pretty much any trade and force a region to depend on outside humanitarian aid

kbotc ,

No, the unemployment rate was not 75%.

The disparity between Gaza and the West Bank is also reflected in unemployment rates, which over the period 2007-22 have been persistently higher in Gaza at an average of 39 percent, compared to 17 percent in the West Bank. This even as labor force participation rates have remained below 50 percent since the mid-1990s in both Gaza and the West Bank. The situation is particularly pronounced for youth and females in Gaza, where over two-thirds are unemployed, compared to less than a quarter in the West Bank.

www.elibrary.imf.org/view/…/article-A001-en.xml

The atrocious unemployment is partially because women are essentially excluded from the labor market.

Killing_Spark , (edited )

I remembered incorrectly, what I was thinking about was the percentage of people relying on international aid which is/was between 75% and 80%. I didn’t find anything on how the unemployment rates are calculated, are women even included in the total potential workforce? I’d guess so, because they are interested in reporting a number that’s as high as possible, but on the other hand they might not do that out of bigotry?

Edit: Apparently yes women are counted towards the total and they are around 60% unemployed

FishFace ,

There is no need to “play devil’s advocate” - if you believe something, argue for it. If you don’t believe something but think I’m missing something, you can point it out and make a case for why it’s important without being confusing about what you actually believe.

All evidence I have seen is that Hamas does not systematically use child soldiers. We can see the indiscriminate tactics of the IDF; we can put that together with the high death toll to make a reasonable conclusion that vast numbers of civilians have been killed. You’re trying to cast doubt on this idea but the amount of doubt is akin to flicking water from your fingers onto a housefire.

Arete ,

The average age in Gaza is like 17. Do you truly believe Hamas is out checking birth certificates? Statistically, half their forces are minors. Combined with estimates of Hamas military losses, that might make fully half of the 10k dead children Hamas child soldiers. While still horrifying, that meaningfully changes how the reported casualty counts should be interpreted. My point is, and has always been, that interpreting casualty numbers that a militant group releases with clear propaganda intent in a light most favorable to them is at best stupid and at worst willfully ignorant.

FishFace ,

You say this:

interpreting casualty numbers that a militant group releases with clear propaganda intent in a light most favorable to them…

but just said this:

Statistically, half their forces are minors.

Pull the other one. If all you wanted was for people not to interpret casualty numbers “in a light most favourable to Hamas” you’d be acknowledging how high the death toll is while making your point instead of trying to distract from it.

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@kbin.social avatar

Israel certainly doesn’t make that distinction when they indiscriminately bomb them.

Arete ,

Whataboutism aside, Israel estimates 8k dead Hamas soldiers, so they literally do make a distinction.

athos77 ,

they have never made a distinction between their own soldiers and civilians.

I don't see why you think that's a problem - Israel has certainly never made a distinction between Hamas soldiers and Palestinian civilians when they bomb them or slaughter them in the street or fire at them when aid is being given out.

Arete ,

Oh is Israel reporting 25k dead Hamas soldiers then?

kool_newt ,

The first casualty of war is truth. We can trust Hamas as much or more than we can trust Israel. I’m not an expert, but I’d imagine we could find 100 instances of misinformation from Israel for every 1 from Hamas just from how much each group puts out.

MarcoPogo ,

This is a joke right?

kool_newt ,

no

Deceptichum ,
@Deceptichum@kbin.social avatar

I’d put Hamas’ word above Israel’s these days, barely but above.

We’ve all seen what Israel is doing, yet they deny it to our faces.

speaker_hat ,

I welcome you to read Hamas 2017 charter and let me know whether you can trust this organization in any way:

Archive: web.archive.org/web/…/hamas-2017.pdf

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