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istanbullu ,

I don’t get the AI-porn hate.

MonkderDritte ,

Teens use it to generate porn with real classmates.

KillerWhale ,

Teens have been making fake porn for ever. Photoshop someones head on another body. Cut a classmates photo and tape to a magazine centre fold. Before everyone gets their pitchforks, I’m not saying this is not harmful to the victims or that their should not be consequences for sexual harassment. This is just another tool.

mamotromico ,

A far more effective tool

acastcandream ,

Let’s change it to grenades.

People have been killing each other forever. Stabbing someone’s chest. Smashing their head in with a rock. Before everyone gets their pitchforks, I’m not saying this is not harmful to the victims or that there should not be consequences for murder. Explosives are just another tool.

At some point this AI-evangelist “it’s just a tool” argument stops holding water. We can’t just enable all people to do things 1) rapidly and 2) at scale without any consideration for how they will use it. Teenagers doing lewd things with images in the 90’s or 80’s or whatever period you want to harken back to also didn’t have the ability to rapidly disseminate this information to, quite literally, the entire world in a matter of seconds.

Why bother with DUI laws if we’re going to go down that road? Why restrict usage of anything with a legitimate purpose?

davehtaylor ,

This right here.

I’m so fucking sick of the “it’s just a tool” or “sO YoU wANna BAn EvErYthiNG?!” bullshit. It’s all bad faith garbage that people hide behind because they want the results of these “tools.” They want the AI porn fakes of teenagers and celebrities (because they’re pathetic creeps and incels with no concept of dignity or consent). They want to be able to rip off actual artists so they can pretend like they’ve done something “creative” so they can get social media clout. They’re completely unserious people who can’t be reasoned with. They need to be shunned and shamed.

jarfil , (edited )

That’s a lack of vision.

I want… people to put on a VR set, and fuck off to their fantasy world instead of messing up IRL. I want creepy incels, rapists, and similar, to have a means to act out their creepiness without impacting real people’s lives. Even more, I want them to prefer their virtual fantasies, because they can control them with a push of a button, instead of brainwashing, gaslighting, grooming, drugging, and finding other ways to control real people.

The faster that AI+VR gets more realistic and easier to use, the better for everyone.

Rekorse ,

I don’t believe that there are any studies that have shown that acting out fantasies in virtual spaces will reduce actions being taken out on real people.

Since it seems like your argument rests on that, do you have anything you can reference to back up the claim?

jarfil ,

Are you asking for studies about virtual spaces that don’t exist yet? Seriously?..

For an approximation, you can check some like these:

researchgate.net/…/222552404_The_pleasure_is_mome…

psypost.org/violent-video-games-decrease-stress-h…

Rekorse ,

Well, if you are going to argue that we need to figure out a way to get virtual kiddie porn to pedophiles so that we can protect kids, you should be sure it won’t lead to more kids being abused first.

Did I misinterpret your position?

jarfil ,

“Be sure first”… like how? Do you suggest running an experiment, then counting the abuses…? 🙄

Unethical human experimentation is kind of frowned upon, so the only before-the-fact information that’s ever going to be available, is the behavior of component elements present in other studies.

My position, is that we should follow those studies. Right now, they indicate that realizing fantasies in more controllable virtual environments, correlates to a decrease in the incidence of the same behaviors in less controllable IRL settings. Meaning: if you want to see less of a behavior IRL, give it an easier to control virtual outlet.

Do you want to protect kids? Well, given that those who were to listen have already listened, and those who were to be deterred by punishments have already been deterred… and lacking an effective method of detecting future abusers… there don’t seem to be many options left other than luring the remaining abusers towards a decoy.

davehtaylor ,

You seem to not understand the scale at which these things operate. We’re not talking about niche tools that only incels and creeps will use to jerk off to CP, we’re talking about tools that can be used to manipulate, spread mis- and disinformation, and imitate actual people doing things they wouldn’t normally do, and can do so at a scale that is exponentially greater than anything we’ve ever seen.

Go take a look at Facebook. Log out of YouTube and look at the front page. Try to do a Google search. Look at the absolute flood of AI generated shit. I know a lot of authors of short fiction, and the publications that they submit to that normally see a couple hundred to a couple thousands of submission per month have been flooded with hundreds of thousands of submissions per month, all AI garbage.

Now imagine it becomes so good that it’s indistinguishable from the real. Pics, vids, articles. The scale and speed at which people can create society-level harm and destroy lives is incomprehensible. This is not a “think of the children” thing. This is an inflection point where you will never know if the video you just saw of a political candidate calling for the extermination of X group is real or not. But the harms and consequences will be real. You will see revenge porn not just of nudes, but of videos of people seemingly doing horrific acts, and having their lives ruined because of it. And it will happen so fast and in such a flood that nothing will be able to stop it or counter it, because no one will see the truth buried in the inundation.

Again, we could do some of this now, but not at the unimaginable scale or speed that AI generation allows for.

This is not a good thing. And if this is the world you want, then there is no reasoning with you. You are truly lost.

jarfil ,

Was about to respond to your arguments, when…

This is not a good thing. And if this is the world you want, then there is no reasoning with you. You are truly lost.

“My way or the highway”, huh? Ok, guess there is no reasoning with you. 🛣️

jarfil ,

Imaginary grenades.

Check out the gaming industry, where a kid from the other side of the world can tell you how they will “kill your mom, r*pe your sister, and make you watch” (sic), just before killing and teabagging your corpse in-game. At some point the “it’s just a game” also stops holding water… and yet somehow most people are capable of differentiating the “tool” from the piece of shit using it.

Regarding DUI laws, they’re also wrong, focusing on the effect instead of on the cause. AI is not the cause for generating deep fakes, just like DUI is not the cause for getting drunk, and games are not the cause for being a piece of shit.

Ain’t it interesting how coming up with a consistent framework, makes it applicable to different areas of life?

petrol_sniff_king ,

Imaginary grenades.

Having porn made of you is imaginary?

At some point the “it’s just a game” also stops holding water…

The video game doesn’t produce anything.

AI is not the cause for generating deep fakes,

DUIs can be reduced with public transportation. What do you propose reduces… porn fakes?

Ain’t it interesting how coming up with a consistent framework, makes it applicable to different areas of life?

Fucking lol.

My problem with machine learning porn is that it’s artless generic template spam clogging up my feed of shit I actually want to see. But you know, to each their own.

jarfil ,

“Porn made of me”? You mean, by paying me to sign an agreement, or by drugging and/or forcing me…? Just to be perfectly clear: I’m not a photo.

The video game doesn’t produce anything.

Are we talking about the game’s video capture, or the feeling of wanting to puke onto that piece of shit until it drowns?

What do you propose reduces… porn fakes?

Something like “teaching your brat”. Porn fakes don’t even become a problem until they get distributed to others. Adults can go to jail, it works on some.

My problem with machine learning porn is that it’s artless generic template spam clogging up my feed

That… has more to do with tagging and filtering, rather than anything mentioned above.

It’s also somewhat weird to diss the “template” of an AI output, when porn videos have settled on a template script for about half a century already. If anything, I’ve seen more variety from people shoving their prompts into some AI, than from porn producers all my life (japanese “not-a-porn” ingenuity excluded).

CanadaPlus , (edited )

I mean, there’s people that think you should be able to own grenades, too. This is actually a bigger philosophical question that deserves a rigorous answer that I rarely see attempted.

acastcandream , (edited )

spoilerasdfgasdfasfgasdg

CanadaPlus ,

Maybe. Most people would agree. But why? Unless you talk about that it’s just flaming back forth, which is not worthy of anyone’s attention.

acastcandream ,

Which is why you laugh at them as they deserve and move on.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

or that their should not be consequences for sexual harassment.

This is my thought on it. Deliberately exposing the “model” to such a thing is fucked up. It’s sexual harassment, even if the level of realism is “text only”. But, people should be allowed to make and consume whatever kind of non-real porn they want in private.

I should note this is not what the law says in many nations, including my own.

lowleveldata ,

They are doing it anyway. It’s a plus if they learn one thing or two while doing it

davehtaylor ,

Hang on. Are you actually saying that making fake porn of teenagers without their consent is a good thing because it teaches valuable skills?!

jarfil ,

Right? Who will think of the children! Before computer porn, we used to imagine our classmates, TV hosts, celebrities, and neighbors. Now that (imagination) was a valuable skill!

(I mean, some would also cut&paste faces from one photo onto another, with scissors and glue… but most just used our imagination)

sonori ,
@sonori@beehaw.org avatar

You can’t publicly share nudes from your imagination or pass them out to your friends with five minutes work, something you basically definitionallly have to be doing in order to get caught.

Revenge porn is absolutely a serious method of harassment that does routinely end in suicide even for adults, and it is absurd to compare making it so easy that kids can do it to someone they’ve never talked to in minutes to fantasizing about their classmates.

jarfil ,

Revenge porn was there before AI… but somewhat ironically, as more people are likely to label anything from SFX, to game renders, to the lunar landing, as “AI”… even actual recordings of porn used for revenge, are more likely to be dismissed as “just AI”, reducing its impact (no more Kardashians).

People should still take responsibility for educating their little brats, which has nothing to do with whether it’s AI, gun ownership, or “just” bullying.

Vodulas ,

The issue is that AI has made it so much easier that more people are doing it. The AI cat is out of the bag, but it could do with some tangible legislation

jarfil ,

So, like what kind of legislation? All the problematic uses of AI, already have legislation against them. I don’t see any viable “anti-AI” legislation, just enforce the one already in place. Meanwhile, strengthening prevention and responsibility rules, would benefit all aspects of society, including the uses of AI.

Vodulas ,

Limiting what that data can be trained on for one. No pictures of kids for example. For porn specific AIs, don’t allow users to upload custom images. That is just asking for revenge porn or CSAM. Companies clearly can’t be trusted to put in safeguards for themselves, so I guess it is time for legislation.

jarfil ,

No pictures of kids for example

Meaning, an AI blind to kids.

Keep in mind that training data is required for both recognition, and generation. Legislating that kids “It doesn’t look like anything to me”, leads to things like:

  • Cars that don’t stop for "It doesn’t look like anything to me"
  • Spam filters that don’t stop porn, or gore, or both, of "It doesn’t look like anything to me"
  • Photo storage that erases empty photos which “It doesn’t look like anything to me”

For porn specific AIs, don’t allow users to upload custom images

Not sure how you think AIs work, but anyone can train a LoRa on their own laptop, no “uploading” to anywhere required.

Companies clearly can’t be trusted to put in safeguards for themselves, so I guess it is time for legislation.

Cool, and I agree with that. I just think that example is horrific (for starters, it would make Lemmy’s anti-CSAM filter illegal, since it’s trained on pictures of kids).

Got any other proposals?

petrol_sniff_king ,

I think it’s funny you talk about revenge porn like it’s just so tiresome and tedious to think about.

“Oh, a hurricane struck Florida again.”
“Oh, there’s revenge porn of my neighbor’s daughter again.”
“What a terrible saturday.”
“Anyway, I think my toast is done.”

jarfil ,

Feel free to partake in the tediousness:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashian_family

It was tedious trash back then, and 17 years of beating a dead horse hasn’t made it any less tedious.

CanadaPlus ,

You can’t publicly share nudes from your imagination or pass them out to your friends with five minutes work

Hey, you don’t know how fast I can draw, internet person!

istanbullu ,

that is not an argument against AI. We didn’t ban photoshop because people did face swaps.

leds ,

The harm is in the realisms , this matter when AI generated parn is shared with others.

ramble81 ,

It’s been forever since I’ve been to 4chan… I’m almost afraid to check out /b/

wagesj45 ,
@wagesj45@kbin.run avatar

Porn porn porn porn porn porn porn racism porn. Same as its always been. Maybe more porn now.

Virkkunen ,
@Virkkunen@fedia.io avatar

I checked it out as I was curious. First post was "I sleep with my sister, AMA" and then an AI porn thread with guides and very dangerous lolicon porn.

Do not check it out

Fal ,
@Fal@yiffit.net avatar

Lol dangerous?

winkerjadams ,

CP is illegal and it’s borderline (is what I’m guessing, I haven’t gone)

acastcandream ,

Do you want the feds at your door?

jarfil , (edited )

Depending on where you live, lolicon can be treated as either:

  1. You’re imagining wrong, go to jail
  2. I’ll know it when I see it
  3. If it looks too real, you go to jail
  4. Cartoons are not real people
  5. Only PIV is sex, so as long as there is a couple black lines, it’s legal for all ages

TL;DR: check your local laws before watching Japanese stuff.

MajorHavoc ,

but was unable to reproduce those images in my testing

I bet they worked hard at this…

xor ,

i remember the good old days, when you had to use scissors to physically cut a head out of a photo, and then glue it to your porno mag

tal ,
@tal@lemmy.today avatar

Scissors manufacturers: yet another victim of disruptive technology.

CanadaPlus ,

Once again, ancient Rome is conquering the world.

Daxtron2 ,

we must ban scissors they’re too dangerous.

CanadaPlus ,

Fun fact, there was actually a UK judge that seriously called for points to be taken off of all kitchen knives to prevent stabbings.

Daxtron2 ,

I feel like thst would just change stabbing to slashings

CanadaPlus ,

Yep. It sounds like a weird hypothetical by a pro-gun activist, and it would be largely ineffective, but the dude seems utterly sincere. It’s not hard to just file something to a point if you’re serious (it happens in literal prison), so at best it make a small number of crimes of passion less serious.

Banning a useful but abuse-prone technology is always going to create both inconvenience for legitimate users and some level of prevention of bad uses. What the right balance is is a tough, complex question and probably very dependent on when and where you ask it, but unfortunately it often gets boiled down “but the children” or “but freedom”.

eveninghere ,

Checkmate, I called the police.

Kissaki ,

when you had to

Everyone HAD to do it. ✂️

darkghosthunter ,

And where is the evidence? Asking for a friend.

DarkNightoftheSoul ,
@DarkNightoftheSoul@mander.xyz avatar

4chan?

Franconian_Nomad ,

The Hacker, you know.

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