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____ ,

This is incredibly interesting. Gives me a bit of future hope as well. About to have a joint replaced, and the doc was very clear the operation may well need to be “revised” in 10+ years.

I acknowledge and accept that risk, of course. But if we can regenerate cartilage (in that very specific context), revision could look more akin to removing the joint socket liner and replacing it with new cartilage by then.

Or by the 20 year mark - let’s be honest, I’m in my 40s so having a second revision is not out of the question at all, if I’m otherwise in acceptable health.

Even if the (smashed) ball side of the joint has to be straight replaced again at that time, half the surgery is better than all of it.

cashmaggot ,

Safe healing. Not sure what part you're getting fixed up, but all parts hurt. I always figure these surgeries, even when you never come back at 100%, are worthwhile if you can do them. Because being crippled with pain really degrades your overall quality of life. And even though you say you're in acceptable health, I swear to god you'll notice things you had been compensating with after you find yourself in a better place.

____ ,

Thanks - it’s a shoulder, so one of those “Either live with bone-on-bone pain for the next 30 years, or get the surgery and hope” kind of deals.

I had an unexpected… medical detour that delayed getting the shoulder done, and you’re 100% right about things being compensated for. The shoulder was planned for a couple of weeks ago, and then some other stuff happened, and I’m noticing simple things like using I can use my other hand to turn a doorknob, but then need a foot to actually push the door open - until I was recovering from something else and cognizant of additional pain, I had no idea I’d even been doing that sort of thing.

All other things being equal, after surgery and PT, I’d be happy with getting back to around 80%. At that point, the (relatively weak, apparently) joint will be able to save my tail in a pinch. - right now, I am sworn off of all alcohol and any meaningful activity if I wake up in the middle of the night because if I fall and further damage the shoulder, it gets exponentially worse. Not that I’m planning to be a falling-down-drunk post-recovery, but it’s the principle of it. Just walking outside for a smoke before going back to bed requires some thought and risk consideration. It’s a whole new world I’d never even considered.

cashmaggot ,

I figured it was a shoulder because I have known too many people who've been athletes or labor workers who's shoulders just decide to dip out. You know that kind of pain, over an extended period of time I swear is what kills people. I've seen folks in their 60s leave this mortal coil from bone on bone. Augh. Even just the though gives me the heebs.

You know going into this, especially with the current drug climate (have no idea where you're at - just guessing the US) - it's really good to have a solid plan. Cause you might not have enough pain support, and you know where people go when that happens. And then you flop and fuck up. I knew a guy once who was on one of those knee scooters and I don't exactly know how but he ended up falling off and bashing his knee then having to redo the surgery and doubling his recovery time. So yeah, please take care of yourself. But also you know - pills and alcohol are the ingredients for a bad time. But also access to things you need (iffin' you're a regular nicotine user and not a smoke while you drink kind of person) - might have to shift while you're in bed. You know, like thinking about grabbing a vape for the time being.

You're gunna be fine though, I can feel it. You've got a solid head. So all the best, and you've got this.

(p.s. - on the delay thing - if it's the medical system, it's just how it is now a days. If it's personal stuff - I hope you've got it covered. Either way, setting yourself up for this big todo and it being delayed is a mess. But I hope it's on your terms. GL again and kick ass in PT you BEAST!)

cashmaggot ,

This is wonderful, and go Northwestern! But all that jazz aside what stops the molecules from moving when the tissue reaches its peak state? A collapse due to a depletion of one of its parts!? Also I am not a biologist/chemist, but if someone could put some input in here that'd be great. Is it that the molecules act as "invaders" and signal the body itself where to hyper-focus healing? But that there's the added bonus of holding a necessary chemical needed to repair tissue/bones. In turn the amount injected would denote the lifespan of the molecules. Because you'd inject the amount necessary to repair x-damage? Not sure, but just kind of how I figured it would work.

shreddy_scientist OP , (edited )
@shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml avatar

The dancing molecules lead to gene expression which then starts regenerating the cartilage. They are basically an on switch for the repair. This is massive as it could prevent cardiac arrest from occurring down the road. When cardiac arrest takes place, the chances of it happening again drastically increase due to an alternation of the immune cells made in the heart.

For my fellow nerds, cardiac arrest leads to Th2 immune cell production in the heart instead of Th1, and Th2 is great against parasites, but that’s not very helpful at keeping the heart safe. Th2 is also involved in most allergies, which isn’t ideal here either. Meaning, by turning on repair genes in the heart before things get more out of line, it will decrease the chances of cardiac arrest, which has numerous benefits immediately as well as down the road.

Like most biological reactions, tissue repair is regulated in a feedback loop. So the dancing molecules get the process started, and once complete the body then stops, as this allows for energy conservation.

cashmaggot ,

Ah, thank you - this is the juicy stuff I love. As I know absolutely nothing, but love reading about this stuff. I figured, due to the speed at which something like this could be administered it could be utilized by first responders and save a slew of lives.

In the article it notes that there is an essential protein (I believe it was a collagen) infused into the molecules, which I had just assumed was to be utilized in the healing process. In my head, I just couldn't conceive of another way that would stop a vibrating external "antagonist" (is it an antagonist? I am not sure what else to classify it as) - from continuing it's process outside of just general degradation. I didn't imagine the body could just choose when to stop being stimulated. Also am interested in the day to day production of Th2, and if individuals with heart disease tend to have lower production of it as a whole. Just don't know. I've got to read more on heart disease and the cardiovascular system as a whole. It's been a pretty hands-off thing for me.

shreddy_scientist OP , (edited )
@shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml avatar

Ya, feedback loops are everywhere in the body. It’s basically the default for any reaction involving enzymes, which is most of them. But since heart attacks are a clogging of the passage and only result in tissue damage, I could only see this being used afterwards. But with spinal injuries, it maybe a different story.

I’d bet the collagen is there to ensure it’s well received in the heart. As collagen is the main structural protein in the extracellular matrix of a body’s various connective tissues. It could also be a guide to ensure it goes to the right location.

Well, it’s definitely not an antagonist, it’s more the activator of healing if anything. When used for spinal cords, it was “injected as a liquid, the therapy immediately gels into a complex network of nanofibers that mimic the extracellular matrix of the spinal cord. By matching the matrix’s structure, mimicking the motion of biological molecules and incorporating signals for receptors, the synthetic materials are able to communicate with cells.” So the motion is just used to active the tissue repair process.

When it comes to immune cells, Th2 is only found as the primary immune pathway in the heart after cardiac arrest. Beforehand it’s mainly Th1, which is ideal to eliminate forien bacteria as well as viruses. Th2 is primarily for parasite defense, while also resulting in allergies and the regeneration of mucus. This is a contributing factor in being more likely to have a 2nd cardiac arrest after the 1st.

Th2 vs Th1 is a complex relationship, and it’s primarily formed earlier in life. This is why some folks in the 70s used tape worms to cure aliments. It shifted the Th1 response to Th2, providing some relief, yet you had a tape worm in you…

cashmaggot ,

I thought it would be an antagonist because it was an external force. Which is why our bodies would be so forthright in getting them "out" which is what gains attention. I don't remember the other word I thought of last night, but it was less...antagonistic (wahaha!). But activator is a great term, because it just shows cause -> effect. On usage, I could see it being used by hospitals of course, but I thought perhaps starting the healing process as soon as possible (as I heard distance from an emergency room can increase risk factor) might be a life-saving process. But either way, I'm very excited for this. My ex used to talk about how she was going to keep smoking and drinking because in the future they'll have nanobots that swim around her body and heal her. So to be honest, that's what this reminded me of first read.

I also figured it sort of worked as a band-aid or scab does keeping further damage happening to the area by covering it until the healing process was finished. So this bit you say in the middle is a nice summary and thank you! I've got some tabs on cardiology pinned but it was too late last night to brush over them, and too Sunday right now to run over them too =P! Sounds like I should be reading up on immune systems as well. I went to a black school system and we weren't taught jack-squat or shit. So I feel like I am playing eternal catch-up but I also really enjoy the process so in that sense I don't mind. But it is sort of embarrassing how little I know grand scheme. But then again, I know Kurosawa said the same thing, so eh - no worries ultimately.

This little tail bit on the end, I am guessing that's some combination of exposure to germs. pollutants, and mother's milk (which I heard is vital to forming a hearty immune system). All things aside, I am guessing this is either an interest of yours or something you studied first hand? But if you have any resources you'd like to point to I welcome them with open arms. And thanks again, this has been a really insightful post with a lot of little tidbits to look into!

p.s. - Gotta say that I also did read the study - so I know the movement itself increases the healing rate. It was just me putting all the blocks together in my head, because I felt like I read the article but was missing some pieces of the puzzle and am looking forward to further news later this year.

shreddy_scientist OP ,
@shreddy_scientist@lemmy.ml avatar

I studied Microbiology and Immunology in undergrad and now working on an immunology PhD. It’s for sure my favorite system to study. Check out Jane Way’s Immuno Biology. It’s an amazing book to get comfortable with how elaborate the immune system function is in our bodies. Learning something new everyday is a goal of mine, sounds like it’s the same for you too, which is fun. But ya, immunology is the bee’s knees’s!!!

cashmaggot ,

Hey, congrats! That's big news. I've only ever known one microbiology adjacent individual and they said the heaviness of the subject actually forced them to drop it. They were plastering index cards everywhere, and studying books 500 pages thick and somewhere in-between they broke. I always applaud folk like you, because you keep folks like me (and of course others in the future) alive and well. It's huge, so many kudos and the best of luck with your research. Although clearly you've got the passion, and you'll do fine. Speaking with you made me kick the bits out of myself, because I have an auto-immune and while I looked into the disease itself I never actually studied anything on the immune system as a whole. And realize there was this whole chunk of information that I could probably look into that could help me better understand the internal workings of my inner-world over just the symptoms.

I grabbed an older edition (because it's not academic for me, just you know - personal interest) of that book. I'm pretty excited over here! I know this sounds horrible, but I am an absolute idiot! Hahahaha! I think I saved myself by reading books out of the local library growing up, but I wish I were more academically sound like folks like you. And in living, and growing - I have found so much interest in understanding the means and mechanics of this world. And I honestly believe you train your brain regardless, but you've got to choose what you're going to put in there. And a huge reason why I had to stop going to Reddit (I couldn't even hold an account on that site, I mean look at how I type) - is because I don't care one flying fig about "celebrities" and I don't want that gunk in my brain. I'd much rather have beautiful stuff like this. Which sparks the imagination and allows you to follow a variety of questions down the rabbit hole.

Big thanks, you've been fantastic to converse with <3!

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