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gyrfalcon ,
@gyrfalcon@beehaw.org avatar

Hey y’all! This thread has sparked a lot of discussion and it is obviously a very tense topic being discussed at a tense time in the world. With the way the thread has been going, the mod team doesn’t feel we can moderate this thread thoroughly enough to make it follow our rules, so I am going to lock it.

kbal ,
@kbal@fedia.io avatar

It's remarkable that Tibetan culture has been so tenacious that there's anything left of it today. If the government of 50 years ago had been able to exert the kind of control over its people that they do today, it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't have been fully eradicated by now.

zerfuffle ,

We’re talking about the same Tibet where, throughout history, almost every single major government position has been held by a Tibetan, right?

zerfuffle , (edited )

Tibet is the romanized name for the region (based on Latin Tibetum). Tibetans call the Tibetan plateau “Bö” and Central Tibet “Ü-Tsang.”

The original Tibetan Empire (circa 600-800 or something) stretched across the regions of Amdo (modern-day Qinghai), Ü-Tsang (modern-day Tibet Autonomous Region), and Khan (split between TAR and Sichuan). Xizang is a more or less direct transliteration of Ü-Tsang, the territory that makes up the vast majority of the modern-day TAR.

Tibet refers to the entire plateau (also referred to as the Qinghai-Xizang plateau or the Himalayan Plateau) and Xizang refers to the territory made up by the TAR. Xizang has, for as long as I can remember, been the Chinese name for the TAR.

This is manufactured outrage with a clickbait title… About what can be expected from Newsweek.

Edit: for some additional context, China is usually pretty good about keeping local names. See: Ürümqi (Wulumuqi) from the name of Dzungar village there, Kashgar (Kashigaer/Kashi) which has had the same name for millennia and Harbin (Haerbin) from the name of the Manchu village there (among others). Understandably, because Hui and Uyghurs still live in Urumqi and Kashgar, Manchu still live in Harbin, and Tibetans still live in Xizang.

0x815 OP ,

<a href="">@zerfuffle</a>

It really helps if you read the article before posting.

zerfuffle ,

Xizang is as much a “Chinese word” as Tsawwassen or Denali is an “English word.” It’s literally a direct phonetic transliteration of the Tibetan name used to describe the land occupied by the TAR.

t3rmit3 ,

And it’s being used to try to distance themselves from the long standing international opposition to their illegal occupation and annexation of Tibet, and the genocide done to achieve it.

zerfuffle ,

Maybe Westerners shouldn’t get their panties in a twist about someone not using a name created by the West because Western colonialists couldn’t figure out a better transliteration?

t3rmit3 ,

Okay, let’s use the name that the legitimate government of Tibet, the Central Tibetan Administration, endorses.

Oh look, it’s “Tibet”.

zerfuffle ,

The legitimate government of Tibet… According to who? Even the British (who had just finished shipping opium to China, looting Chinese palaces, and had every reason to antagonize the Chinese) didn’t recognize the independence of Tibet.

Regardless, this is the same Tibetan government that supported a caste system and ethnic discrimination, right? That Tibetan government? The same one whose leader has been called out by American media for being a pedophile?

t3rmit3 , (edited )

According to who?

According to Tibetans.

Regardless, this is the same Tibetan government that…

Yawn. Nothing but whataboutism from you, huh? “Who cares if China did multiple genocides and illegal annexations and disappears people who protest the government, the Tibetan government is also bad, so China should be allowed to ethnic cleanse them!”

No government is good, but other humans being bad isn’t an excuse to go and be bad as well. And let’s not pretend that China gives a crap about anything except expansion of their resources and influence. You’re not impressing anyone by defending a genocidal regime, it just comes off as being incapable of actually critically assessing your own side. You’re no different than the MAGA crowd who think America can do no wrong.

zerfuffle , (edited )

The same 6 million Tibetans living in Tibet, Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan, and Yunnan? Those Tibetans? The same Tibetans who are the ethnic majority in TAR and make up a significant proportion of the population of Qinghai?

Oh, you meant the Central Tibetan Administration, which nets about 100 people a year leaving China. The same one that’s seeing people return to China because the economic prospects elsewhere are worse.

Edit: the TAR, which is governed by Losang Jamcan as Congress Chairman, Yan Jinhai as Government Chairman, and Pagbalha Geleg Namgyai as CPPCC Chairman… All Tibetan. The Tibetan deputies to the National People’s Congress… Also Tibetan. Life expectancy increased from 36yo to 72yo. GDP/capita and disposable income/capita growing rapidly YoY. Billions of dollars in infrastructure investment, including the Lhasa HSR. Interesting strategy for a genocide, that’s for sure.

t3rmit3 ,

There is No War in Ba Sing Se!

zerfuffle ,

Yawn

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@zerfuffle transliterations still belong to the transliterating language, eg "Bombay" or "Peking" may not sound English but they are.

It's unclear from the article what the Tibetan government-in-exile spokesperson would like it to be called.

BartsBigBugBag ,

The god king of a ethnostate with enshrined caste system and slavery? I don’t really care what he thinks.

livus , (edited )
@livus@kbin.social avatar

The spokesperson is hardly a god king.

Tenzin Lekshay, a spokesperson for the Central Tibetan Administration, the Tibetan government-in-exile, said of Beijing’s report.

BartsBigBugBag ,

Ah, so he’s not the god king, just the representative of the god king in absentia, thanks for clarifying that for me. Doesn’t change that I don’t respect anyone who represents or is integrated into a caste-based ethnostate, but it’s good information nonetheless.

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

Sure, I'm not asking you to respect anything in particular.

The only placenames mentioned in the article are Chinese or English.

Got me wondering what the actual Tibetans would call it (both those inside Tibet and those outside it).

zerfuffle , (edited )

That’s fair, but I think it loses the distinction between different transliteration strategies. For example, phonetic transliteration preserves far more of the original language than other methods. Transliteration is a necessary component of language: most common languages lack glottal stops and clicks, but it’s still important to be able to refer to places that are named with glottal stops and clicks.

In that regard, the TAR has always been referred to as Xizang in Chinese because the TAR covers the Ü-Tsang region. The lands of greater Tibet from the peak of the Tibetan Empire are now parts of Qinghai, Sichuan, Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkim, Kashmir. The unified region of greater Tibet has, in recent history, always been དབུས (Ü) and གཙང་ (Tsang). This is pronounced ue-tsang according to Tibetan Pinyin (phonetic transcription) and Xizang according to transliteration - running through the possibilities, I’m struggling to find an exonym in Mandarin that would be closer in pronunciation.

The traditional name of the region is བོད་ (Bhö). The name Tibet is itself an import from the English. Given the degree of funding the Tibetan government-in-exile receives from the US (an English-speaking country), I’d suggest that the Tibetan government-in-exile has a strong financial incentive for maintaining English…

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

@zerfuffle the exiles seek the political goodwill of other nations, so presumably they also have a strong incentive to be intelligible to people in those nations. Would be interesting to know if they call it Bhota when they are in India.

When I am fundraising I use names people recognise.

zerfuffle ,

Absolutely, there’s a good point.

Doesn’t change the fact that ethnic Tibet and the TAR are not necessarily the same territorial entity. Tibetans make up a significant proportion of the population of Qinghai, for example.

t3rmit3 ,

Renaming the place you’ve colonized is a standard settler-colonialist step in the erasure of the indigenous population. Just China being China.

zerfuffle ,

Beehaw once again back with the shit takes

t3rmit3 ,

Guess I must be the Tiananmen Guy, because I seem to bring all the Tankies to the yard.

zerfuffle ,

Bringing up Tiananmen when there are documented instances (with actual evidence) of people getting run over by Israeli tanks and bulldozers in Gaza right now. Backed by the US government. With the US President actively spreading FUD about the scale and extent of atrocities. Nice.

Xizang is literally the phonetic transliteration for the region of the TAR. You’re basically saying that we should keep the name Western colonialists gave a territory because Western brains would get hurt if the name changed.

t3rmit3 ,

I love how you Tankies just assume everyone but you is pro-US or something.

Yeah, absolutely; the Chinese government is evil just like Israel and the US’s governments. Glad we agree that they’re all imperialist genociders! Good talk!

zerfuffle ,

By the widely recognized origin of the word (the Soviet Union rolling in tanks to suppress revolution in Hungary) and what it means (people in support of that use of force and tanks to suppress civilian revolution), supporters of Israel and the US are both “tankies.” Glad we agree, good talk!

t3rmit3 ,

Wow, it’s absolutely hilarious that you’re trying to reclaim that term. Good luck! xD

zerfuffle ,

Tankie refers to those people who supported the Soviet use of tanks to quell the Hungarian revolution. Literally, it’s the exact same thing Israel is doing in Gaza.

t3rmit3 ,

Not quite what it refers to now, but I’m sure you’ll inform us that you know better.

Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to communists who express support for one-party communist regimes that are associated with Marxism–Leninism, whether contemporary or historical.

zerfuffle ,

The term “tankie” was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain (CPGB) who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union (CPSU). Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring uprising.

This is why people don’t cite Wikipedia.

t3rmit3 ,

Yes, that is the origin of the term, but it is not what it means now. Is that too complex for you?

zerfuffle ,

By the widely recognized origin of the word (the Soviet Union rolling in tanks to suppress revolution in Hungary) and what it means (people in support of that use of force and tanks to suppress civilian revolution), supporters of Israel and the US are both “tankies.” Glad we agree, good talk!

Let me be a bit more clear:

By the widely recognized origin of the word

Edit: maybe I wasn’t clear enough

widely recognized origin

t3rmit3 , (edited )

Ah, I see your confusion.

what it means (people in support of that use of force and tanks to suppress civilian revolution)

This ^ is the incorrect part of your statement. That is not what it means now.

edit: Also

Tankie refers to those people who supported the Soviet use of tanks to quell the Hungarian revolution.

Emphasis added. If you meant “referred” in the past tense, that was a typo on your part. Otherwise, you are just trying to reclaim the term to an earlier meaning.

FaeDrifter ,

supporters of Israel and the US are both “tankies.” Glad we agree, good talk!

Based af, the tankies who support Chinese and Russian imperialism are equivalent to the tankies who support US and Israeli imperialism.

zerfuffle ,

For what it’s worth, there’s still no evidence that Chinese tanks actually killed anyone on 6/4. No journalists on the ground found any indication of a mass casualty event on Tiananmen Square, which directly contradicts the claims made by protestors that there was. The same cannot be said for Soviet tanks in Hungary or Israeli tanks in Gaza, where civilian causalities are rather well-documented.

t3rmit3 , (edited )

What’s saddest about this is that it took me literally 3 minutes to find images of tanks in Tiananmen running over student barricades, and blood streaks left on the ground afterwards, and bodies on the ground, but you don’t actually care at all, you’ll just cover your ears and push your narrative. You’re no better than people downplaying what Israel and America do, but you are so wrapped up in the righteousness of your ML rhetoric that you’ll just deny it and make up excuses for your side doing the same stuff.

zerfuffle ,

Have you seen the blood streaks that tank tracks create? You can look at some of the videos in Gaza if you want to.

Try again, maybe this time with actual evidence instead of unfounded conjecture.

Edit: To clarify, I don’t think anybody is denying that people were hurt and killed on 6/4. Let’s make that clear. If anything, the Tank Man video shows that tank drivers were under orders to avoid civilian casualties.

t3rmit3 ,

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

It’s very funny to me that you keep bringing up Gaza like it’s some counterpoint to what I’m saying, when all you’re doing is pointing out another bloodthirsty regime’s crimes. Do you think that Israel’s government being evil is somehow a rebuttal to China’s government being evil?

zerfuffle ,

You haven’t provided any actual evidence.

Is your point that your opinion is built on vibes?

t3rmit3 ,

Yeah, no evidence of anything, just images of the massacre. But those could really depict anything!

lmao

zerfuffle ,

You’re claiming there’s a blood smear from a tank running over a body.

Have you seen a tank before? Do you think a tank is just a single block of metal?

jarfil ,

took me literally 3 minutes to find images of tanks in Tiananmen running over student barricades, and blood streaks left on the ground afterwards

I’m not as fast browsing through the 2141 images you’ve linked, most of them of protesters, some burned down tanks, and someone on a bike dressed as a tank. Could you point to the exact images you’re referring to?

FaeDrifter ,

No journalists on the ground found any indication of a mass casualty event on Tiananmen Square

ON Tiananmen Square. This is fascist-level wordplay. The same journalists found a massacre all around Tiananmen Square in the rest of Beijing.

no evidence that Chinese tanks actually killed anyone on 6/4

This is just a straight up lie. Lots of people were killed in Beijing. Just possibly not any within the tiny physical confines of Tiananmen Square itself.

LicenseToChill ,

For these people it’s the most grievous offense to criticize china and russia, and if you’re not constantly cheering for total annihilation of the West, you’re an ontologically evil libshit and deserve to be gulag’d

livus ,
@livus@kbin.social avatar

the name Western colonialists gave a territory because Western brains would get hurt

This is one of those cases where we really need to know the wishes of the people in question before we make assumptions.

Case in point: Myanmar. "Burma" is the British colonial name, however it is preferred by some of the freedom fighters fighting the Tatmadaw because "Myanmar" is associated with the Junta's regime. And the real/pre-colonial name varies because the old name Myanma Pran is associated with a specific ethnic group, the Burmese.

zerfuffle ,

Freedom fighters funded by the US, with an office in Washington? Odd how it’s always Western-funded parties that want to maintain colonial names…

0x815 OP ,

<a href="">@zerfuffle</a>

Yes, I fully understand what you say. You mean this, but honestly, does it add any value?

zerfuffle ,

Dude brought up a completely unrelated topic and used the “tankie” perjorative, a term that literally describes IDF supporters based on the actions of the IDF in Gaza.

jarfil , (edited )

Could you refrain from generalizing and name calling? Your top comment was informative, you could leave it at that.

Devi ,

The government of China are not good people… is that controversial?

t3rmit3 ,

Tankies hate this one simple truth…

tesseract ,

More like CCP is a bunch of goons and criminals - starting with MF Mao, all the way up to Winnie the Xi virus poo.

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