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dustyData ,

Watch out guys, he’s read things.

slowd0wn ,

He knows the origin of the word “totalitarian” without looking it up. Because memorization is obviously the cornerstone of critical thinking

RedditWanderer ,

I learned where it came from in high school. Is that checkmate?

affiliate ,

unfortunately not since everything taught in high school is a lie. the only way to learn things is to read things after graduating (as long as they aren’t written by high school teachers or any other educated person)

echodot ,

So you looked it up - got you now evil imperialist

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

I love that pointing out that a fascist invented it is somehow a gotcha

MolochAlter ,

Tbh that’s one of the few good things Mussolini actually can take credit for. That and converting a bunch of swamps into arable land.

Can’t easily hate something without a proper name for it afterall.

Eldritch ,

They love that tactic and treating it like it means something. Like a libertarian claiming to be experts in capitalism because they’ve read every work of fiction Ayn Rand ever published. And I’m like, it’s great you read and all bro. But do you understand. And inevitability they don’t.

Peaty ,

Or they have read things but cannot place it in context eg The Communist Manifesto was a response to problems Marx and Engles saw in capitalism whereas Smith was responding to issues with mercantilism.

Eldritch ,

Well that and of the ultimate problem when it comes to things of sociology and economics. No matter how many books you’ve read or by who. Having read and commit those books to heart. Means you know nothing more than what the people in those books say. Whether or not we agree with what they say or hold it true. It doesn’t make it true or valuable in itself.

That most ideologies no matter how rational or logical they seem. Are often impractical due to the assumption of rationality and logical thinking.

Peaty ,

Your post makes it seem like you think sociology and economics aren’t sciences. Economics in Marx’s time was certainly closer to philosophy but that hasn’t been the case since the 1960s.

The problem the Marxists who are not formally educated in philosophy or science face is that they don’t realize economics in the modern age isn’t concerned with the kinds of thinking Marx engaged in because it isn’t based on empiricism.

Eldritch ,

They aren’t. Not in the same sense of physics and chemistry for sure. That doesn’t mean that they are without value. It just means that they have no authority to predict anything. Empiricism and determinism are sort of the core of science. If you mix a set proportion of materials at a specific temperature you will always get the same products. An authoritarian a leninist and a Communist walk into a bar. And you’ll get as many different punchlines as there are people who attempt to answer it.

Nothing changed in 1960. Economics is still largely philosophy. With the hindsight those sort of things give we can often try to understand why things might have happened. Maybe even offer insight into something like it perhaps happening again. But certainly not predict it happening. One of the best indicators that economics is largely philosophy. Is the fact that for these last 50 years conservative in the United States to have babbled on incoherently about bullshit supply side economics.

Peaty ,

Oh, so you’re one of those. You don’t know anything about modern economics or philosophy if you think the two are even remotely similar.

Seriously a question in modern economics would be “did the tax policy instituted by placeistan in 2008 positively or negatively impact school enrollment?” While a question in philosophy would be “is the tax policy instituted by Placeistan an ethical or nonethical policy?” Those aren’t the same and the only reason why you would think the subjects are similar is if you know nothing about either one.

Im willing to be you know little about what constitutes a science based on the ignorance you have displayed so far.

Prestidigitation is not part of science and it is weird that you think the inability to predict everything is somehow unique to social sciences.

18+ Eldritch ,

Oh, so you’re one of those. Getting all pissy, unable to address what was said. Instead making accusations and strawmen.

Your example is just silly. That’s just asking someone to make an observation and personal interpretation. How would you justify that interpretation. How would you test that hypothesis? Is it repeatable? Wheres your control group. Economics fails/doesn’t adhere to basic scientific method. And isn’t SCIENCE. No disrespect econ major. It isn’t. It’s a social science. That’s a significant difference. Saying economics is a Science. Full stop. Is like saying your hatchback is a formula 1. Though if you can prove otherwise I’m willing to listen despite your rudeness

18+ goat ,

take it easy gamers

Kerfuffle ,

You can read as much Ayn Rand as you want with perfect understanding and you’re not really going to learn anything.

Cylusthevirus ,
@Cylusthevirus@kbin.social avatar

Palestine will be free a month from now

Really?

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Deluded

FoundTheVegan ,
@FoundTheVegan@kbin.social avatar

Mark those words!!!

🙄🙄🙄🙄

I stopped reading at that point. While I would love for that to be true, it's absolutely batshit to think it will happen.

SkyezOpen ,

I’ve marked them. In my calendar. I’ll be paying the grad a visit in a month to see how things are going.

Epicurus0319 , (edited )

Now that the largest lemmy instance has finally severed ties with them for fapping to Hamas slaughtering Israeli children, they shall be a mere shell of their former self and this will undoubtedly cripple their ability to brigade and caps-lock their way into retaking Lemmy and turning it back into the Far-Left Truth Social it originally was before its colonization by the normal, non-tankie redditors who founded .world to post about normal redditish things

SkyezOpen ,

Hopefully, but those weaselly fucks have infiltrated and taken over leftist subreddit before. I wouldn’t put it past them to try it on lemmy.

PugJesus , (edited )
@PugJesus@kbin.social avatar

Yeah, in a month I'm going to be staring absently at indescribable numbers of Palestinian casualties, feeling blessed to lie a country so far from such a situation, and feeling cursed for living in a world that allows it.

mindbleach ,

Yeah, like that Family Guy bit. Bibi saw signs reading “Free Palestine” and said, “Sold.”

kromem ,

Of course. As soon as Putin finally gets the position as Speaker of the House he’ll advance a bill that switches the US from capitalism to communism, which will go so well that the EU follows suit within days. This is about one week from now.

Then the unprecedented collaboration of the world having shrugged off the yoke of capitalism will solve nuclear fusion gaining total energy independence. That’s going to be about two more weeks give or take a few days.

Oh, and all Christians will have given up their religion for atheism of course in the interim, so middle east policy based on Revelations goes out the window.

At that point the US and EU will withdraw their support for Israel and instead give their support to Palestine, no longer having any reasons to need a strategic ally in the region.

The paperwork and inevitable killing of Israelis may take about another week after that, but with a bit of luck in the scheduling, it will be wrapped up a month from now.

Mark his words.

gravitas_deficiency ,

Who’s Mark? And why does he have words?

mindbleach ,

… there’s some rapture movies that sound a lot like that.

Epicurus0319 , (edited )

Yes comrade, and the month after that Putin, having completely taken over Ukraine somehow and then inevitably sent its whole population on a one-way trip to Siberia, will use his icebreaker fleet and what’s left of his navy to liberate Alaska’s 5 ethnic Russians, immediately decimating our they/them army before they even get there by simply being straight so that within mere hours they secure the entire state and, after inevitably wiping out the native Alaskans and all of Anchorage’s gays, hold a free and fair referendum where 109% of the remaining population votes to form the Alyeska People’s Republic. Then they’ll somehow sneak past the narrow and well-guarded Puget Sound without getting hit by missiles from a mountain or running aground in the fog and then create the Sietl People’s Republic (all without having their cheap uniforms soaked in the rain and dying of pneumonia), gobbling up all those tech and airplane manufacturing secrets (so we can finally see actual innovation without capitalistic monopolies yay!) and going on yet another homophobic killing spree, this time spanning several cities. The PNW shall be free from capitalistic US tyranny!!!1

Meanwhile, China will claim that since Hawaiians are descended from Taiwanese aborigines, it historically owns Hawaii; the american-mainland-hating locals will defs be on board with another continental imperialist stealing their land and turning it into a state-sized tourist resort again- this time peppered with a few boarding schools and sterilizations. It will be the beginning of the end for the American Empire™, I can’t wait!

/s

yuri ,

This is great, thank you

nonailsleft ,

Downvoted for the /s

18+ Cornpop ,

How’s that going huh lol

kameecoding ,

the kind of places that say “Ukraine should be destroyed at all costs” and blame the “west” for Putin invading Ukraine and commiting genocide are now calling lemmy.world zionists, well that’s the least surprised I have ever been

Peaty ,

Well if those Eastern European nations would stop reacting to Russian imperialism by expressing a desire to join NATO then Russia wouldn’t feel so threatened by NATO’s expansion, so really it’s the countries that Russia is invading’s fault they were invaded. /s

Astroturfed ,

It’s super hilarious considering the amount of anti-israel posts/comments I see all over. The nuance of being on the Palestinian side of the argument without openly supporting terrorism is lost on them.

The tankies don’t seem to be able to realize normal, rational people, don’t like groups who intentionally hit civilian soft targets. Russia launching missiles at hospitals and schools wasn’t an issue for them, Hamas killing children and blowing up music festivals not an issue for them…

mindbleach ,

we are one of the tamest instances when it comes to banning people and deleting comments/posts.

Uh huh.

Bet you don’t even know where the [word] totalitarian comes from or who coined it without looking it up.

Adolf literally Hitler could’ve coined the term, and that wouldn’t change a goddamn thing for how it is used to accurately condemn a genocidal dictatorship. Do you… do you think projection decides what’s real? Like if someone’s the first person to make an accusation, any form of “no you” is false?

we retain our perfect track record of not blocking real instances

Well yeah, your stated agenda is to shit up other conversations. You’re part of a harassment campaign echo-chamber halfway down the gradient from lemmy.ml’s erudite atrocity apologia to hexbear’s openly enforced tankie hugbox.

yuri ,

They have no idea what projection is. To them it’s just a word you use to describe people with opinions you don’t like.

TheFriar ,

we don’t ban good-faith posters.

What a crock. I was banned for having a discussion about how the “russia is de-nazifying Ukraine” is swallowing Russian propaganda hook, line, and sinker. White supremacy is a problem everywhere, but to use it as an excuse for what’s happening is a lie.

Ban.

barsoap ,

“Palestine will be free within a month” my ass. Currently I’m worried the Kahanites will get the genocide they always wanted before the civil society gets its head out of its collective ass and disposes of the current government.

Epicurus0319 ,

Yeah :(

Peaty ,

I love the comment “they will wipe the floor with people”. It seems most of their debate techniques revolve around not understanding the definition of common terms like “authoritarian” and then deciding they are correct.

trafficnab , (edited )

“Heh, adjusts glasses, every day before you’ve even gotten out of bed I’ve already cited 15 separate state owned Chinese and Russian media sources along with several random communist blogs to prove that western liberal thing is bad and terribly authoritarian government thing is good, you never even stood a chance bud”

Astroturfed ,

I love it when they tell me economic theory is wrong as a way to win an argument. You see only communist economic theory from the one book they read, written by some maoist farmer that was summarized in a lemmygrad post they read while taking a shit, is correct.

I strongly believe we need to employ more socialist and communist ideas into Western society/economics. That’s not kosher with them though. We have be lead by a dictator who starves millions of people to death or it’s not real communism enough.

Peaty ,

There’s no reason to bring any more of Marx into neoclassical economics than has already been taken. The stuff we left out was the invalid stuff

Astroturfed ,

I disagree. The principals of Marxism employed aren’t done well enough and most changes I would like to see in society would be more Marxist than neoclassical.

The “heavily progressive income tax” that used to be a staple ont he American economy has been eroded to a shell of what it was for example. That needs to be restored to its former glory. I wish that’s what they meant when they say make America great again… Workers having more equity/stake in companies could solve a lot of our current end stage capitalism bullshit. Marx believed in abolishing inheritance, which I think would help a ton with the rampant nepotism bullshit we suffer from. At least some type of cap and regulating all the ways the wealthy circumvent inheritance taxes.

18+ Peaty ,

Marx was wrong about a bunch if stuff most importantly is he was 100% incorrect about the labor theory of value. Why should economics incorporate ideas that are without question not correct?

18+ Astroturfed ,

Every economist had ideas that don’t work in practice. It’s not a reason to discount all of their work and theory.

18+ Peaty ,

Im not saying discount all their theory though. Neoclassical economics took the stuff that works from guys like Marx and Smith and dropped the stuff that was incorrect.

Suggesting we should bring more of Marx back in would mean adopting more of the stuff we know is invalid or incorrect in Marx’s case.

18+ Astroturfed ,

I guess that interpretation is valid if you think neoclassical economics is successful and working.

18+ Peaty ,

If’s a method of explaining the way resources are allocated. It isn’t supposed to “work” and anyone suggesting it should has no idea what economics is.

18+ Astroturfed ,

Ah, yes I have no idea what I’m talking about. I’ll go burn my econ degree in effigy.

18+ Deuces ,

This is tangential to your point, but every time I see an implication that Smith had anything in common with a modern conservative I feel the need to point out that not only did he not believe in inheritance as you said; he also believed in social welfare programs like public education, and anything else that the market would predictably not be able to handle. In his time healthcare was only starting to get to the point of realizing that cowpox was a useful innoculation for chickenpox, but I have no doubt he would believe in socialized healthcare in a modern context.

Smiths free market was never supposed to be this free:

Wherever there is great property there is great inequality. For one very rich man, there must be at least five hundred poor, and the affluence of the few supposes the indigence of the many. The affluence of the rich excites the indignation of the poor, who are often both driven by want, and prompted by envy, to invade his possessions.’

Wealth of Nations, V:I.b, p.709-710

Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.’

Wealth of Nations, V:I.b, p.715

‘Corn is a necessary, silver is only a superfluity.’

Wealth of Nations, I:XI.e, p.210

18+ Astroturfed ,

As with everything from an intellictual, the Republicans took smith and held it up to a fun house mirror when selecting the parts they liked. Reagan was the real inflection point for them on economic theory. They called Raegons economic platform “voodoo economics” in the primaries. It never made any sense, never had any grounding in reality.

Smith is supposedly their north star and they contradict his theory continually and ignore all the parts they don’t like. In college reading Smith I was shocked at how much I agreed with him. There are so many things in his theories that would make free market capitalism more practical that we don’t employ.

whoisearth ,
@whoisearth@lemmy.ca avatar

Bet they don’t even know what a Kibbutz is when they heard of them being attacked.

It’s not about political ideology it’s about being right and always be afraid of an angry person who “knows they’re right”.

killeronthecorner ,
@killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

always be afraid of an angry person who “knows they’re right”.

I can’t fake being afraid of them but I’ll happily feel sorry for them.

Franzia ,

I prefer my debates about economic theory to exclude Maoism, yeah. I did enjoy Unlearning what macroeconomics 101 taught me, though.

Astroturfed ,

In the west basic economics focuses far, far to much on creating the most “value” without enough focus on why or who benefits. Macro 101 pushes a ton of comparative advantage free trade shit without any thought for exploitation and impacts. That crap is what got us Walmart and Amazon filling landfills with cheap plastic poor quality products who made a handful of people billions.

NightLily ,
@NightLily@lemmy.basedcount.com avatar

MacroEcon 101 is about how markets work pretty much exclusively and understand how these thing happen and the influences that go with them. MacroEcon 102 is about how government intervention is a good thing due to things such as negative externalities or the Free Rider problem. MacroEcon 103 is dependent on where you are and can consist of saying hey the individuals will inform themselves so we should give all power to a “benevolent” dictator.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

most of their debate techniques revolve around not understanding the definition of common terms like “authoritarian”

Or “debate”.

If you come to a discussion with an attitude of “I’m going to wipe that floor with you” you’re doing it wrong. That is not conducive to an exchange in ideas.

yuri ,

So hilarious that their concept of education seems to include highschools and independent research. That’s it.

I guess if you coast through hichschool to the point that you come away thinking “They didn’t teach me anything!”, independent research would be the highest form of education possible. You’d also probably be a huge narcissist, but that’s a different, stickier wicket entirely.

Cethin ,

To be fair many people do come out of high school thinking they know “the truth” about the world. They really don’t, and it will require individual research (whether that’s while working on your PhD on Russian history or something else) to learn everything there is to know. There’s always more to learn, and many educational things purposefully leave out context or misconstrue information.

That said, anyone talking about the USSR in the modern day is fucking stupid. This person seems to not realize the USSR doesn’t exist anymore. I surely don’t trust their opinion on the subject.

antonim ,

I recommend you make an account on a third-party instance that federates with us, like ml or ee until they also defederate from us because we have principles

But .ml is literally the “Marxist-Lenininst” instance, why do they automatically expect conflicts with them as well? Some of these people have a persecution complex.

Cylusthevirus ,
@Cylusthevirus@kbin.social avatar

How about because they're not actually particularly Marxist-Leninist, but simply red flavored fascists and everyone with two neurons to rub together can see that?

admiralteal ,

Not to no true scotsman this shit, but does anyone self-identify as "Leninist" who isn't a Stalinist?

Marxist is a pretty tame word, all things considered. Marxism is a pretty broad tent that fits a lot of people. But I don't think I have ever interacted with a self-described "Leninist" that wasn't authoritarian and against civil rights. This coming from a guy who regularly quotes Lenin.

vih ,

Indeed. Leninism as something separate to Marxism comes from Stalin’s “The Foundations of Leninism” in 1924. He wasted no time after Lenin died to coopt Lenins already flawed adaptations for his own needs. There is no “Leninism” separate from Stalin.

As a Marxist, and someone who have considered myself a communist (though I rarely use the term now mostly because it results in tedious discussions about exactly by what definition; a more precise term would be libertarian Marxist), I’ve stood face to face with “Marxist-Leninists” who told me that if they were in charge I’d be sent to a labor camp because I supported democracy.

To me they’re as much of a threat and as much of an enemy to me as any fascist.

“Democratic” centralism was a very dangerous mistake, and the notion of a vanguard party likewise, because they combine to make a party far too easy to capture by people who think they know best, and so can do away with the corrective input of other people, and that attracts exactly the same type of people who are attracted to fascism. There may be distinctions in who exactly they want to lock up and what they want to outlaw, but there are significant overlaps there too.

Eldritch ,

100% It’s such a tragic and fucked up thing that the words have been so corrupted and co-opted. Can’t identify as communist due to McCarthy-ist propaganda in the West and the corruption of Lenin and Stalin still clinging heavily to the term to this day. And for many the same reasons can’t even claim to be libertarian without having to explain topeople that you aren’t just selfish capitalists. Due to all the Twisted Rothbard propaganda. And Marx / Marxism which hasn’t done anything wrong has just been beaten into the ground with misinformation.

It’s so tedious to have to try to educate every single person you talk to. So much easier unfortunately to just use more vague or abstract terms. Though honestly I think there is a lot of value in identifying with and differentiating the terms. And trying to take them back. I for one don’t think I would have come to the realization I have today had people not done it to me.

You are spot on that leninists/stalinists are nobody’s friend though. Just like all authoritarians they’ll turn on themselves even eventually. And Leninism is one term there is no rehabilitation for.

vih ,

I kinda like reclaiming the term libertarian, though, because it really fucks with the heads of US right-wing libertarians to quote Joseph Dejacque to them with his agreement with Proudhon’s “property is theft”.

I’ve taken to seeing my goals as not to convince the people I talk to, but to convince “passers-by”. That is far more satisfying because it takes far less effort. You get far just by showing patience and letting the other person stumble in their own words and reach for the insults. Just earlier today someone got a ban for going off the rails and supporting Pinochet in that thread about CIA admitting their mistakes in Iran - he convinced nobody, and ended up contributing to making himself look like a crazed bloodthirsty psychopath. If I’d hoped to “win” that argument, I’d have despaired, but as a beacon illustrating the immorality of coopting democracy “preventatively” out of unsupported fears it was glorious.

With respect to the tankies, my biggest concern is the number of people who just aren’t paying that close attention. There are lots of nice quotes even from Stalin in isolation. When people treat tankies as if they’re just a bit misguided but still part of the same broad movement, they provide fertile ground for these people to peddle their shit that way, and get legitimised by proximity. To me that is the biggest risk the pose - their access to left-wing spaces must be fought, because the moment they’re on the outside their recruitment is far harder.

Eldritch ,

That would definitely be a good way to make the heads of those who unironically claim that taxation is theft explode. Though I’m much more a fan of phrasing it as private property. It’s a little more constructive and concise. Even those that are being disingenuous would generally reflexively ask what other kind there is. Besides public property of course. Which is an excellent opportunity to explain concepts like personal property. Whether or not they’ll be listening. Because others might.

I think it’s dangerous to assume/conflate passion with childishness/name calling. For instance the word tankie. Yes some of them have unironically embraced it. But generally it is just name calling as well. Granted many will whine that you’re calling them names. Even when you’re just labeling then as what their words and actions show then to be. Not all names are created equal. Which is why I stick mostly to calling them Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist etc. Which ever is more applicable. Because it’s what they clearly are and espouse. Most of them don’t own a tank however. And the average person wouldn’t understand the reference.🤷 That said, if name calling is the only thing someone had to offer. Yeah fuck that.

vih ,

I tend to stick to what people call themselves when talking to them, but the term “tankie” is broad, and sometimes I don’t feel like listing every variation. I don’t think it’s connotations are much worse than those of the names of their various ideologies.

18+ Eldritch ,

Yeah, if they choose to use it themselves that’s fair. Typically that isn’t my experience. But it is just that, my experience only. Though honestly if I were to find ones that did do that. Lemmygrad definitely would be a prime location lol. But I never really saw anything there worth engaging.

ViciousTangerine ,

Well, tankies are pretty good at eating their own, even when they agree on 99% of stuff.

cmbabul ,

Also, tankies don’t know Marx from their own asshole, if they had any damn sense they’d be able to tell that the USSR wasn’t communist because it never moved past the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat’ phase if it can be said to have even started in the first place. Stalin took over and never had any intention of letting that happen, Khrushchev did in fairness try to fix some of the damage done which makes some sense because he actually fought in the Russian Civil War as a Bolshevik, but Brezhnev killed all that

Slotos ,

Communists historically are the primary cause of death of communists.

Rooty ,

Wow, I had no idea .world defederated the tankie instance. I’m guessing the terrorist simping was the final straw. Anyway, this guy seems to be deeply hurt by this decision.

Cockmaster6000 ,

“Parties are dumb anyway” says loser, after being booted from a party for being an insufferable twat.

YeetPics , (edited )
@YeetPics@mander.xyz avatar

If they wanted to defederate why wouldn’t they do it on their own? These people are fucking insane.

Big “I didn’t even want to win” energy from this post.

NewPerspective ,

Why do all the crazy people think debates fix things?

admiralteal ,

When your entire strategy in an argument is to be disingenuous and dishonest as all hell, you ALWAYS feel like you win the arguments.

It can trick a person into thinking they are a good debater.

donuts ,
@donuts@kbin.social avatar

In other words, it's easy to win a debate when you were only aiming to convince yourself.

mindbleach ,

The nature of bad faith is that there is no right answer.

FireTower , (edited )
@FireTower@lemmy.world avatar

Because eventually the sane people stop talking to them. And that means they forfeit the debate and the crazy person wins it be default.

SchizoDenji ,

Ahh yes, the Eric Cartman strategy.

dangblingus ,

Theyre insecure about their intelligence and theyre posturing.

echodot , (edited )

Who were they performing for? Literally no one likes them, and it’s not like they’re winning anyone over with that little rant.

Socsa ,

The point isn’t to make people communists - the point is to make them cynics. For that you don’t actually have to defend any particular ideological space, you just always be attacking whatever target is convenient.

goat ,

lmao their tantrum

r3df0x ,

They’re a bunch of childish larpers who think Lenin was cool so they redgelord themselves into fully taking the ideology without the slightest hint of irony, and then melt down if it gets questioned.

dangblingus ,

To be fair, Lenin was a lot cooler than Stalin and nowhere near as ruthless or bent on authoritarianism.

Rampsquatch ,

Getting shot in the arm isn’t as bad as getting shot in the balls, but that doesn’t mean I want to get shot in the arm.

dangblingus ,

Bet you dont even know the etymology of totalitarianism! Check mate, rational people!

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