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sarjalim

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sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

I mean, as a fellow atheist I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that there are groups that are targeted (in Swedish society) specifically for their affiliation with a religion, their sexual orientation etc. Protesting religions is fine and IS protected speech.

But certain actions are only meant to provoke, disrespect and incite. The Iraqi guy is well within his rights to protest and criticize Islam; the question here is whether the manner of his “protest” was protected speech or if choosing that specific action, time and place for his protest, all taken together, tip the scales from valid and protected religious critique into something else. If the main intent was to incite, disrespect and provoke, it might not be protected speech.

That said, I’m not a fan of most religions. Specifically when religion is used as a justification to impose prescriptive and restrictive rules on others both within and outside of that religion (pro life, gender roles, prescriptive clothing like Muslim head coverings, prescriptive rules regarding birth control or sex, discrimination or persecution of LGBTQ people etc).

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

No problem. It’s good to have well reasoned, civilized debates- we don’t have to agree at the end!

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

I mean, that’s a matter of personal opinion (and you are entitled to yours). Legality aside, I personally think some groups should have special protections as they are often targets of discrimination or harassment specifically because of their affiliation with a certain group. That includes race/ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender identity etc.

Of course, these people are also individually protected from harassment and discrimination through other laws as you say, but the incitement law protects them as a group and from being targeted in certain ways. You are allowed to publicly protest against Judaism, but not to publicly wear swastikas (a symbol of the horror of the Holocaust).

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

It would arguably be worse, since you are allowed to wear swastikas in private. You cannot wear them about town, that’s legally considered a hate crime.

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

We already have that law, so the only thing up for debate is interpretation? Which legal experts are busy with debating now in public discourse in Swedish media, with no clear consensus except that it should be tried in court. I understand what you mean by slippery slope, but if everything is a slippery slope we would never be able to legislate anything. And let me remind you, both Sweden and the US have already imposed certain limits to the right to free speech. Defamation, for example, is not protected speech.

I disagree that a public school isn’t a public place, but you’re technically right. It doesn’t really matter in the eyes of the Swedish law though, arguably it would be worse legally if the student had carved the swastika on a public playground outside, rather then in a semi-public spot in a school.

sarjalim , (edited ) to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

It’s not my proposed idea, it’s an actual, contemporary Swedish law which has existed since 1948. What is up for debate is how that law is to be interpreted in this instance, what constitutes “creed” (in, perhaps, a better translation of the original Swedish instead of “religious belief”), and what constitutes a “message” and whether burning a Quran is valid criticism of Islam or if doing it at that time and place is a hate crime targeting Muslims. It hasn’t been tried in the Swedish supreme court whether Quran burning in certain contexts like the recent events is illegal under that law or not.

Technically, sure, you could argue that everything can be a religious belief/creed and any belief is covered under that law. But that is not how the law is interpreted and used in practice. I would consider that a strawman argument then, because it intentionally misrepresents the spirit of that law.

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

I’d mention that the mere act of burning a book that you yourself own is not any of those things

I’m actually going to be in Sweden next year for Eurovision, and I’m really looking forward to it!

Of course, I’d toast you over a rainbow drink while we watched the Quran burn along with the “God hates fags” flyers, some 1950s books on how to be a good wife, possibly the book of Mormon, Torah, a Bible, a Taylor Swift poster and Harry Potter for good measure in my back yard! Just perhaps not in front of an embassy, mosque, synagogue, church etc… Just to be on the safe side legally 😊 Very nice and refreshing debate climate, and I really hope you enjoy Eurovision!

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

Yes, it’s definitely a very polarizing and personal question with no clear right or wrong. And I am also aware that there can be side effects to laws that unintentionally strike too broadly. It’s vital to protect the constitutional laws that protect our democracies, and limit restrictions to those laws.

I personally think you as a gay person absolutely should be protected from harassment from groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. My opinion is that they have the right to think that “God hates fags”, they have the right to say it, they have the right to proclaim it publicly (possibly; it depends), individuals might even have the right to say it to your face. What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution. And in Sweden, possibly illegal, if done in a manner and context that violates you as a member of a protected group.

I think that’s a valid and reasonable limitation to free speech, but yes, it’s murky waters. There’s a lot of debate now (and no consensus) in Swedish media about the current limits to free speech and where the line should be drawn.

Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷‍♂️

sarjalim , to news in Protesters storm Swedish Embassy in Baghdad ahead of planned Quran burning in Stockholm

I agree. You shouldn’t be persecuted or harassed regardless of your religious beliefs, you should be equally protected regardless of if you are a Satanist, Wiccan, or whatever.

The actual wording of the law when translated from Swedish is closest to the English word “creed” I think, not “religious belief” as I wrote in my original comment, but I thought religious belief was a smidge clearer. I’m obviously not a native English speaker so I do my best.

And to further adress the “but what if I believe in My Little Pony would that count”, I mean… the spirit of the law does matter to the judges, you’d have to make a very strong case as to why you and your three friends should count as a protected “group” and why dismembering My Little Pony figurines is necessarily incitement against your group. I’m 99% sure no prosecutor would take you seriously. But I don’t know, I am not a legal practitioner. It’s up to the prosecutors to decide if a case seems to have merit, and then it’s up to the court to try what should and shouldn’t count as incitement under the law.

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

Well spoken, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

As to your question regarding what other groups are protected under the same law:

[…] ethnic group or other such group of persons with reference to race, colour, national or ethnic origin, creed, sexual orientation or transgender identity or expression […]

While I understand your hesitation, I fully feel that there are some groups that should be especially protected from deliberate persecution and harassment. Sweden has had a huge influx of Muslim immigrants in recent years, and prejudice is rampant. I would argue that you are much more exposed and discriminated against as an Arab or Muslim in Sweden today, than as a Jew, LGBTQ person, or black person.

That said, Islamism has absolutely no place in a democracy and the undercurrents of conservatism in the world (Islamism, the Republican party in the US, pro life movement, anti-trans sentiments etc) scare me. We should never sustain rules or practices in society based on religious commandments, especially when those infringe on the rights of other groups. Sweden is deeply secular, and I firmly hope we remain so.

sarjalim , (edited ) to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

Let’s separate a hate crime (incitement against ethnic group) from blasphemy laws- we definitely do not want blasphemy laws in Sweden. Critique against religions is protected free speech, as it should be.

What isn’t protected, is your right to protest in EVERY way at EVERY place and EVERY time. Just like defamation laws are a specific reduction to the right to free speech, one can morally argue that if the intention of certain speech is to defame, grossly disrespect, provoke and incite certain protected groups of people, a reduction to the right to free speech is justified in certain contexts. I know lots of people disagree, all I’m saying is that there’s an argument for limiting free speech in some contexts.

Feel free to have a Quran barbecue in your own back yard, but don’t throw a bacon-and-Quran barbecue in front of a mosque during Eid. You are also, certainly, allowed to critizise Islam wherever and whenever you want, that is protected speech. It’s just no longer protected when the context, manner and purpose of an action or message tips the scales from critique to incitement or hate speech.

An example of someone who actually was convicted of incitement against ethnic groups in Sweden in 2020, was a junior high school student who carved a swastika into a desk. If that is covered under the incitement law, burning the Quran in the recent contexts should be too imo (in front of embassies to Muslim countries, or mosques during the biggest Muslim holiday).

America is extreme in it’s own right with regards to free speech laws compared to the rest of the Western world. I respect that position, but don’t agree with it.

sarjalim , to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

No, it doesn’t? Laws are interpreted by legal practitioners and judges, and the intentionality of the law is taken into account. One of the main intentions of this particular law is protecting Jews from persecution, and protecting Muslims from the same isn’t a huge stretch. Sure, you could argue that invisible pink unicorn followers are a protected group, but no one would take you seriously in Sweden. You are arguing an extreme interpretation in bad faith.

sarjalim , to news in Protesters storm Swedish Embassy in Baghdad ahead of planned Quran burning in Stockholm

Two reasons:

The law regulating what the police are allowed to forbid is very limited. They can deny permission for a demonstration due to traffic disruption, but not threats of terrorism or international relations. It’s currently being debated in the Riksdag (the supreme legislative body).

Secondly, the police are in their rights to deny permission for protests/demonstrations that are clearly illegal for some reason. The legislation regulating incitement against ethnic groups (which Muslims are covered under) is fuzzy however, and this is mostly uncharted territory. Context matters for the letter of that law, in legalese the law forbids certain “verbal statements or messages” with a purpose to incite ethnic groups. But is burning the Quran a “message”? Arguably yes (imo) in this context, but it hasn’t been tried.

There was a dismissed case tried in court with a Quran burning, but the context there was different. There have also been some police reports regarding other Quran burnings that were never prosecuted, because the prosecutors only put forth cases to trial that they are convinced that they can win (this is how the system is designed).

What we are waiting for is a case that fulfills, or seems to fulfill, the letter of the incitement law with regards to context, that will be prosecuted and tried in courts all the way up to the supreme court.

The previous Quran burning might fulfill those criteria (burned Quran outside a mosque during Eid). It has been reported to the police and we are waiting to see if the case will be brought to trial.

sarjalim , to news in Protesters storm Swedish Embassy in Baghdad ahead of planned Quran burning in Stockholm

Copied my comment response from another post because I think it’s relevant to nuance the debate and combat disinformation:

I personally don’t think it should be allowed to actively provoke and incite hatred against an ethnic group. Sweden already has a law specifically against this (incitement against ethnic group), which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law. However, there has only been one case that went to the courts trying specifically a Quran burning, and the context was a bit different so it was dismissed. The Quran burning previous to the one in the article has been reported to the police, and imo it should go to trial so we can test the limits of the incitement law. That Quran was burned directly as a statement outside a mosque, during Eid, which is a context that could be illegal under that law.

To clarify, people should be able to burn whatever books and symbols they want and express whatever vile or justified opinions they have under freedom of speech in Sweden- but not in every context and forum everywhere, as direct provovation and incitement. This is actually the majority opinion of Swedes (source in Swedish).

But we’ll see what happens. I discussed this with a lawyer I know, who agreed that it should be prosecuted and go to trial so we can see how it fares in court.

sarjalim , (edited ) to worldnews in Swedish embassy in Baghdad stormed, set alight over Koran burning

Someone new got approved to burn another one outside the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm, that’s why there’s a new reaction.

Tbh I personally don’t think it should be allowed to actively provoke and incite hatred against an ethnic group. Sweden already has a law specifically against this (incitement against ethnic group), which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law. However, there has only been one case that went to the courts trying specifically a Quran burning, and the context was a bit different so it was dismissed. The Quran burning previous to the one in the article has been reported to the police, and imo it should go to trial so we can test the limits of the incitement law. That Quran was burned directly as a statement outside a mosque, during Eid, which is a context that could be illegal under that law.

To clarify, people should be able to burn whatever books and symbols they want and express whatever vile or justified opinions they have under freedom of speech in Sweden- but not in every context and forum everywhere, as direct provocation and incitement. This is actually the majority opinion of Swedes (source in Swedish).

But we’ll see what happens. I discussed this with a lawyer I know, who agreed that it should be prosecuted and go to trial so we can see how it fares in court.

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