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masterofn001 ,

Tidal.

TootSweet , (edited )

It’d be interesting to think of novel ways of getting power from sources other than the Sun.

Theoretically, one could, say, build a space-elevator-like device and use the centrifugal force pushing it away from Earth to run a generator. Of course, for that to work, the weight would have to continually receed from Earth, and may require continually replacing the weight. Ultimately that would rob the Earth of angular momentum.

dharmacurious ,

Wouldn’t that technically be from the sun, too, though? Since the earth orbits the sun due to its mass/gravitational pull?

TootSweet ,

What I posted would take energy from the angular momentum of the Earth rotating on its own axis, not the (angular?) momentum of the Earth revolving around the Sun.

Honestly, I’m not 100% sure the right way to talk about where the Earth’s angular momentum about its own axis came from. I want to say gravity while the Earth coalesced from dust/gas, but I’m not sure that’s quite true because I think the gravity would only kindof “concentrate” the angular momentum that was already present in the gas/dust that was already present in the cloud. (Like, when an ice skater pulls their arms toward their body and speed up, that doesn’t add energy or momentum to the system that is the ice skater.)

So, maybe it’s more accurate to say it’s kinetic energy from the Big Bang and/or supernova(s?) that produced the gas/dust that eventually formed the Earth?

But I’m pretty sure this scheme would get energy from a source that wasn’t ultimately from the Sun.

Kolanaki ,
@Kolanaki@yiffit.net avatar

Would hydro and geothermal count? Wouldn’t count wind because wind is caused (mostly) by the sun heating things up.

Maestro ,

I wouldn't count either then. Hydro is ultimately powered by precipitation, which is caused by the sun evaporating water. Geothermal is ultimately caused by the gravity of the sun affecting the earth.

HobbitFoot ,

I agree with hydro, but you’re wrong about geothermal. Tidal forces caused by the Sun are minuscule compared to that of the Moon. Also, Earth still has a decent amount of latent heat caused by its formation.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

youtu.be/N1pIYI5JQLE?si=uciOf3JzwF8S6qDy

Y’all need to pay attention to the actual question being asked. Geothermal, nuclear, tidal are all originating with the formation of the galaxy and the formation of stars.

Ask yourself: WHERE did the earth get X,Y,Z? Where does nuclear materials come from: supernovas. How do planets form? A gas cloud coalesces, the star forms, and the remaining gasses coalesce in that gravity well formed by the star. Without a star forming in the middle, you get no solar system. You get cold blob of gas or a cold dead rock. Where does tidal come from: same gravitational interactions that require a sun sized object - tides aren’t 100% earth & moon.

Stars are like the seed needed to form crystals. Without them, nothing else forms. Just a bunch of basic chemicals floating around.

dylanmorgan ,

OP said the sun, indicating they meant our sun. Other commenters have clarified that fissile material (and a shit-ton of the other stuff further down the periodic table) didn’t come from our sun, but other suns.

palebluethought ,

The heat in the Earth’s mantle and core comes from the gravitational potential energy of the original stellar dust clouds the Earth originally accreted from. So, geothermal energy mostly isn’t. And there’s also evidence that a few natural uranium deposits have undergone natural nuclear fission chain reactions. That one’s a pretty negligible amount, though. Other than that, no, it all traces back to the sun.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Earth wouldn’t have coalesced without the sun in the middle. Otherwise we’d still be a gas blob.

Nuclear materials were formed in supernovas. They wouldn’t exist in the first place without a star.

palebluethought ,

Nuclear materials were formed in supernovas. They wouldn’t exist in the first place without a star.

Well, yeah, sure. But that star is not the Sun.

Earth wouldn’t have coalesced without the sun in the middle. Otherwise we’d still be a gas blob.

I mean, sure? It wouldn’t be a gas blob, but it would be a very different system. But that still has nothing to do with it – even if the gravity of the sun influences how the earth coalesces, it’s still not where the thermal energy of the core came from. That came from the potential of the dust itself.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Which wouldn’t have the potential if the larger sun didn’t form first to create the gravity to allow the rest to form.

Star != Sun is just pointlessly pedantic. You’re not trying to learn anything, just be a smartass.

palebluethought ,

Which wouldn’t have the potential if the larger sun didn’t form first to create the gravity to allow the rest to form.

This is simply incorrect. The gravitational potential of the body would be there regardless of what else is going on around it. And either way, the OP’s question was not about some hypothetical where the sun doesn’t exist, it’s about where energy came from in the real world.

Star != Sun is just pointlessly pedantic. You’re not trying to learn anything, just be a smartass.

? The OP’s question was literally “is there energy on earth that didn’t come from the sun.” I am not the one being pedantic here.

Carrolade ,

Nuclear (fission) energy did not originate in our sun, it originated in some other sun a long time ago, or potentially a neutron star merger.

Tidal energy originates from gravitational collapse and the conservation of angular momentum when our planet and moon formed, and does not rely on our sun, but similarly originated in the dust clouds that formed our solar system which were put there by some other sun.

Geothermal is a hybrid of these two, with some combination of nuclear decay heating and gravity-driven heating.

Hydrocarbon, wind and hydroelectric all heavily involve our sun somewhere in the process though.

catloaf ,

Tides are from the pull of the moon’s gravity. And the moon formed from another body colliding with the Earth. It’s not just due to angular momentum and the moon forming out of cosmic dust like the Earth did.

Carrolade ,

Without angular momentum it would have fallen back down to the Earth instead of going into orbit. It’s the orbit specifically that powers the tides, not just it being there.

But yeah, you’re right. Beyond providing the materials dust was not involved.

athairmor ,

Tides don’t rely on the sun but are affected by the sun.

Carrolade ,

Hm. Touche.

dylanmorgan ,

They said “tidal forces,” not “tides.” Tidal forces refer to the differential of gravitation between two points on an object. It applies in any situation where gravity is a factor, although typically only very large massive objects experience noticeable effects. That said, the concept of spaghettification (objects being stretched out as they approach a black hole’s event horizon) is based on the fact that tidal forces near a black hole would be so enormous they would be observable for even small objects like people.

mozz , (edited )
@mozz@mbin.grits.dev avatar

Almost.

  • Nuclear energy comes from natural materials of the earth that arrived in their current form (it is basically recycled supernova energy from long long ago)
  • Geothermal comes ultimately from the gravitational energy of the earth itself compressing and heating it

Literally every other energy source (edit: aside from tidal and some others that people pointed out) is some form of modified and stored sunlight, in some way or another.

SzethFriendOfNimi ,
@SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world avatar

Although geothermal could be because of the rotation of the earth compared to its core along with tidal forces.

Although I’m not sure how much of that is from the sun or just in general.

Not sunlight though. Just the sun’s gravitational affect on the earth as well. But nuclear is definitely extrasolar

Fermion ,

Geothermal comes ultimately from the gravitational energy of the earth itself compressing and heating it

One thing that’s at least 97-percent certain is that radioactive decay supplies only about half the Earth’s heat. Other sources – primordial heat left over from the planet’s formation, and possibly others as well – must account for the rest.

newscenter.lbl.gov/2011/…/kamland-geoneutrinos/

A surprising amount of geothermal energy comes from radioactive decay. Gravitational binding energy is indeed very large, but much of that heat has already radiated away before a solid crust formed.

rustydomino ,
@rustydomino@lemmy.world avatar

There is also kinetic energy when objects in space crash into the earth. RIP 🦖🦕

ForgotAboutDre ,

To add to this most of the suns energy leaves the planet. Very little is retained. What the sun provides is a source of low entropy.

jeena ,
@jeena@piefed.jeena.net avatar

No, geothermal energy comes from the earth core for example.

catloaf ,

Geothermal comes from the heat in the core, produced by gravity crushing the particles together during the Earth’s formation.

Nuclear energy comes from the fission and fusion of particles here on earth.

Tidal energy comes from the gravitational pull of the moon.

Hydro comes from the movement of water (though you could trace this back to the sun causing the water cycle).

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Earth wouldn’t coalesce without the sun. Thus no geothermal.

Nuclear materials were formed in supernovas. Can’t have that without a star.

Moons tides wouldn’t exist if Earth didn’t have an orbit of its own. Again, sun needed.

Hydro you already figured out.

catloaf ,

I guess it depends on how far back you want to go. The sun wouldn’t exist without gravity.

fishos ,
@fishos@lemmy.world avatar

Well, seeing as how the question is directly asking “is there any energy you can’t eventually trace back to the sun”, you shouldn’t ever stop going back unless you can reach a definitively non sun answer

(Gravity arguably works - probably the nuclear attraction force as well, electromagnetic I believe)

catloaf ,

Yeah, although I’m not sure if I’d consider the four fundamental forces as “energy”, exactly.

When most people ask the question, they mean in the context of the current environment, where the Earth, moon, etc. are already formed.

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