Would you sacrifice pro-trans campaigning for a Democrat win?

flamingo_pinyata , 6 hours ago

I’ll give you a different perspective. I don’t vote in the US elections (given the impact on people in other countries maybe we should) so I won’t focus on the Democrat/Republican thing but on the reasons for selecting a specific candidate.

Step 1 - deal breakers. Determine if the proposed policies cause any immediate regression in what is already achieved. Rolling back existing trans rights, banning abortion, stuff like that.

Step 2 - vibes. This is the critical one. Don’t immediately look at positive policies you want implemented. Look at how a candidate winning would move the Overton Window .

After this election there will be more, and who wins today moves the general vibe of the entire political system. It sets a base for policies of future candidates who might not even know it yet.

Step 3 - narrowing down. Now if you have several candidates that pass step 2 equally, you can look at the specific policies. Generally you can expect any politician to overpromise (khm lie), but usually they try to achieve at least some of the stated goals.

In two-party electoral systems basically you can’t often reach the step 3, but you do have primaries so it can be applied there.

drdabbles , 10 hours ago

Trans rights are human rights, and how you treat anyone in your society is how you treat everyone. Democrats were scared in the '80s and '90s to support gay people for this exact reason, and instead of losing elections they started winning because people realize gay people are people. They lost elections because they weren’t brave enough to stand with the courage of their convictions, and in my opinion that’s what they deserved.

parody OP , 9 hours ago

Interesting. Then I’m guessing you’d accept the time machine showed you the right outcome & would let the dems lose this election, but it would help them for the next/future elections?

drdabbles , 6 hours ago

The current democratic party isn’t standing for trans rights any better than anyone else. Perhaps individual politicians are, but the party has a lot of de facto republicans in the ranks. So vote for them or not, they aren’t going to make things better for folks that are trans. They also aren’t ending wars, reducing military spending, helping vulnerable people seeking asylum, helping homeless people, providing free mental healthcare or national healthcare at all, and so on. Hell, they haven’t enshrined abortion rights into law in the past almost 50 years.

People vote for democrats because of tradition and lesser-of-the-evils reasons. That’s it. That’s a shitty place to be, and should embarrass us the voters as well as the party.

iusearchbtw , 8 hours ago

I reject the premise of your question.

https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/a0eb0c1f-ce30-4042-b6c2-26630edad650.jpeg

filtoid , 6 hours ago

I agree, the job of politicians is to reframe Trans rights as policies that benefit everyone. If everyone at a negotiation feels like they are winning you have a successful negotiation. Who cares if the new policy disproportionately benefits one group, we are all better off because of it, and in the case of Trans rights give them the same (non-codified) protections as everyone else.

(This is if course ignoring the oft used tactic of the far right which is to do the opposite and reframe beneficial policies (eh. ACA) as something that only benefits one group by calling it a funny name (eg. Obamacare), so it’s easier said than done, but that is what the democrats should be doing more of, imho)

queermunist , 7 hours ago

Democrats are already sacrificing climate targets, asylum seekers, and Palestinians. Yet another sacrifice on the pyre?

At some point you’re just voting for Republicans.

southsamurai , 7 hours ago

You know, this is actually a really engaging question, though I think the limited scope and parameters hinders things. And that title is accidental rage bait (which I think the down votes are a symptom of).

So, I’m going to ignore the “would you rather” aspect of things and just engage with the post in a way that interests me. If that’s not interesting to you, cool beans, read no further :)

First, I’m right with you. Trans rights are human rights, period. Secondarily, screw anyone that doesn’t like it, because trans rights cost nobody anything.

Now, the question that’s here leads fundamental questions about politics as a whole. Does a bloc need to campaign on all of its goals? If so, how active does that campaigning have to be to satisfy the members of that bloc and/or others that might align with it? Then, how are voters supposed to tell what the bloc’s real intent is? Finally, is it smart to campaign on a hot button issue when a race is close? There’s some side questions to those, but I think that’s the core set of issues here.

Now, I’m a practical motherfucker. I’m perfectly fine with campaigning smart, and playing off of opposing fractions’ issues. But I’m only going to support that bloc/party/faction if I can trust them to be playing smart instead of just ignoring the issue.

Take that to the current US election run. The lead candidate has historically been an ally in at least minor ways (and in some major ones) to trans people. The veep candidate is relatively well known for it too. So I would weigh the odds of them at least maintaining their overall stance on the subject being good. So, if they choose to soft peddle, or outright avoid letting the topic become an attack vector, I think that’s smart politics, and I’m okay with that.

Barring revolution, all changes are incremental and require work as well as time to make happen. I would wish for people as a whole to live up to the golden rule and be decent across the board, but I know that if you wish in one hand and shit in the other, one will fill up faster. So it’s a matter of steady pressure on each front as manpower, resources, and alliances allow. Voting for the least bad, or partially allied bloc is rankling, but a political reality since there aren’t enough people willing to have a revolution, and even those that are willing can’t really agree on what the new paradigm should be.

All of that is ignoring the fact that the U.S. is stuck with a two party system that is constantly leveraged for more control, more power, and more money for a very limited range of people. Those people, the ones actually running the parties, do not give a fuck about the people of the U.S. They’ll pick up or abandon any cause as needed for their real goals. Every politician is part of that, whether they want to be or not.

That means, for us, the ones not steering the ship of the US, that we have to pick our battles carefully, and carry along anyone we can at each stage of the fight. If that means voting democrat currently to achieve a long term goal, that’s the mess we’re in. And we work with that party over time, pushing them in way we want, expanding human rights as the easiest way to ensure profits and power.

It’s why LGB turned into LGBT, then LGBTQ, and whatever the next iteration is. Different, but related interests aligning to give smaller groups more power as a voting bloc. Power by numbers. If 2% of the population is bi (number chosen for the example, not accuracy), that’s ignorable. But you add 2% that’s gay men, 2% lesbians, 2% trans, and you start having enough numbers to be a factor in all elections, so long as they stay fair and legally operated. Even with gerrymandering, you can’t completely ignore a big enough bloc.

Right now, there’s zero point in campaigning hard on trans issues. Democrats are the only viable party, and they’ve shown willing to be allies overall. They pander enough to their base as it is, and anything else is a waste of resources. They push for swing voters and a handful of states because that’s the political reality. So that’s their focus, and it should be.

The smartest play is to shrug off objections to trans rights. Just ignore them as not being worthy of discussion. Let Republicans and other opposed people burn their fuel up on a mission they’ve already got a base built for. Republicans can’t radicalize any more than they doorway already have. But you can let them run their mouths with hate, and fire up their opposition to vote for the lesser evil.

There’s multiple strategies to employ to passively make it known the campaign is allied, and they’re doing that. Check out The Advocate, and some of their reporting about Harris. When you can get the press to do the work for you, why waste resources? They know that Harris/Walz has enough history of supporting LGBTQ issues that the press and organizations that focus on those issues are going to back them.

By simply not saying those articles and editorials aren’t true, they say that they are, or at least that’s the impression they want to give (and it’s pretty true from the stuff I’ve seen).

Harris’ campaign loses nothing by staying passive, but would also gain nothing by going active.

Now, I am not a Democrat, and haven’t been for decades. I’m way further left than Bernie Sanders, and he’s as far left as anyone that’s run democrat gets. But I’m also not a vote abstainer. Not so much because of presidential races, though I cast my vote there anyway. It’s the senatorial and house races, plus state and local races that matter more to me. There’s races at those levels where campaigning for trans rights makes sense, but others where it doesn’t.

That’s very important because during presidential years, people bloody well forget that once you get past voters that only vote for one of the two parties, votes count more. There’s more reason to carefully decide what to campaign on, and try to draw in anyone that’s likely to swing your way that isn’t a base voter.

Harris winning is not a guaranteed democrat win. If the Senate shifts, even if the house shifts, the national stage can mean the dems lose overall.

Nemo , 9 hours ago

So, in this hypothetical we have a time machine, and can see not just if Dems lose but also what the consequences of that loss are. Further GOP court-packing? Loss of human rights for other vulnerable groups? Or maybe just a continuation of the status quo? With the time machine, we would know. Because the Dems winning or losing is not a good or evil in itself, but the consequences could be.

But, real word time now, we can’t know all the consequences of our actions. We should always try to achieve the best results we can, of course, but you can’t do something you know is wrong (like stay silent on trans rights) in the hopes that an evil now will lead to a greater good later, or prevent a greater evil. That’s my take, but what else can you expect from a virtue ethicist?

fckreddit , 9 hours ago

This kind of post just shows why I think politicians are spineless cowards. If winning is everything to anyone, they should stick to investing in a stock market.

parody OP , 9 hours ago

The politicians may want the win for selfish reasons. You just want the best representatives for yourself, your loved ones, and your country.

This hypothetical allows you to weigh a party taking the moral high ground against representatives the average Lemming does not want making four years of policy decisions being in a position to do so.

You can give the party you want to win a spine, but it comes at a cost.